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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old September 5 2012, 06:58 AM   #16
Timo
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

Hate/racism is not really a positive attribute last time I checked.
But who's asking you? Significantly, Armus doesn't seem to seethe with racism/specieism, which may be taken to mean its creators considered it a positive attribute they wanted to keep. Which would jibe well with the Founders, who pride themselves on their racism/specieism, being the creators.

When was Odo born?
We have little idea. Perhaps he was ten thousand years old when the Founders launched him, and would take another hundred thousand years to pass from infant to toddler?

The timeline on the Armus case is vague as well. Certainly the planet that once harbored "titans" seems barren now, perhaps because Armus thrashed everything in rage, perhaps simply because the departure took place such a long time ago.

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Old September 5 2012, 09:39 AM   #17
Ln X
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

chrinFinity wrote: View Post
When was Odo born? When the Founders shot him off into space in a tiny jar, or after Dr. Mora forced him into sentience? I can see Armus, if one of the hundred, being "born" among those he'd found on Vagra 2.
The real question is do baby shapeshifters age if they're in those small tubules which carry them. Otherwise we may never know Odo's actual age because we have no idea how long he was adrift in space. Though perhaps Odo began to biologically age when he started to grow as Doctor Mora began experimenting upon him...

And Armus can NOT possibly be a Founder because of the manner of his creation. Whichever beings created him did so from shedding off their negative tendencies, so Armus is the sum of all these being's disregarded evilness. So Armus was created by these beings which is totally consistent with the plot.

Whereas what you are saying is that some stray shapeshifter (juvenile or not and possibly one of the hundred) came to this planet and then these race of beings transformed the shapeshifter into Armus. But that's inconsistent with how Armus said he was created.
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Old September 5 2012, 09:55 AM   #18
Timo
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

Whichever beings created him did so from shedding off their negative tendencies, so Armus is the sum of all these being's disregarded evilness.
We can argue that Armus is simply taking poetic license here. Perhaps his parents simply blamed their child for all that was wrong in their marriage, and then left, seemingly much happier for the offloading of the psychological burden?

Or, to use more Founder-like terms, perhaps a specific member in the Great Link was demonized for his opinions, and everything that was wrong in the Link was blamed on his dissent. He was then left behind when the Founders moved on to their next hideout world.

Of course, we could safely assume that since Armus believes himself to be evil, he's also extensively lying; betrayal of trust is one of those things he feels is a natural part of his personality. So not only might he not be a skin of evil literally, he might also not be the result of events even vaguely similar to what he is describing.

The true counterindications to Armus being a disgruntled and somewhat deranged Founder are only to be found in physical facts, I think. As stated, Armus can do this telekinesis trick, while the closest to this in the Dominion was the bolt of energy a Vorta could be rigged to shoot out of her chest. And Armus can become a shield that blocks transport.

Now, it could be argued that since Founders can expertly become indistinguishable from just about anything, there should be no obstacle to them becoming members of a telekinetic species, or forcefield generators. But this does make one wonder why we did not see such powers in action in the Dominion War. Why did the Founder impersonating Martok not turn itself into an impermeable shield to block the disruptor shots, then into a nuclear bomb to destroy Ty'Gokor? But there were some limits to Armus' abilities as well. Perhaps it just so happens that a Founder can become telekinetic or transporter-proof, but not much more than that, and these things were not of tactical advantage in the Dominion War and thus were not used? (Or that when they were used, nobody survived to tell the tale?)

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Old September 5 2012, 11:13 AM   #19
Ln X
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

Timo wrote: View Post
Or, to use more Founder-like terms, perhaps a specific member in the Great Link was demonized for his opinions, and everything that was wrong in the Link was blamed on his dissent. He was then left behind when the Founders moved on to their next hideout world.
No because the female changeling told Odo that their race were once explorers roaming the galaxy and only banded together after centuries of persecution and settled upon one world in the Gamma Quadrant. Since shapeshifters of Odo's kind seem to be a Gamma Quadrant phenomenon then Armus and the shapeshifters are two entirely different entities.

I'll say it again; Armus said himself he was created from the negative elements of super beings. In other words he did not exist as one of those beings or something else before this change, he was created from the evil/negative remnants of these super beings. He did NOT exist before these beings decided to purge themselves of all negativity and evil. Therefore he cannot be a Founder.
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Old September 5 2012, 11:30 AM   #20
Timo
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

No because the female changeling told Odo that their race were once explorers roaming the galaxy and only banded together after centuries of persecution and settled upon one world in the Gamma Quadrant.
All that could have happened well after Armus was abandoned, in the model where he's at least halfway truthful about his origins and Vagra II was the first and true homeworld of the Changeling species.

Since shapeshifters of Odo's kind seem to be a Gamma Quadrant phenomenon then Armus and the shapeshifters are two entirely different entities.
We can't argue that Changelings would be a Gamma phenomenon, since as they say, they only chose a lifestyle of hiding on a single planetoid after having been more cosmopolitan. Their choice of hideout world would necessarily be at one or another of the four human-defined Quadrants, of course - but that would tell us nothing at all about Changeling history.

Armus said himself he was created from the negative elements of super beings.
Which is probably sufficient reason to discount such creation as a possibility.

he was created
At the very least, poetic license could be expected to account for lack of mention of Armus' troubled youth before he was created. Batman was "created", too, long after the birth of Bruce Wayne.

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Old September 5 2012, 12:10 PM   #21
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

Mr_Homn wrote: View Post
Yeah but it doesn't make sense to me. If a race has become devoid of negative attributes, how could they be so cruel as to leave Armus alone like that to suffer for all eternity? Especially if it's someone they just happened to come across. That's even worse, because that would imply Armus wasn't as evil before as when they left him. I understand that they would still have the negative attributes before they hypothetically met this Armus fellow, but once they rid themselves of their negativity and evil, it would seem quite cruel for them to just leave him there suffering and not try and fix the situation, or fix him somehow.
That's assuming it was intentional. If they just cast their negativity aside, it could be drawn to Armus telepathically just like the connection between Odo and Sisko, Dax and Garak in Things Past.

The history of armus only makes sense if the people who left him did so either before he came into consciousness, or before they were aware of his consciousness. That way, they are completely unaware of the suffering they have caused and their goodness is still intact. If they met some being, and turned him into an evil pile of sludge, and left him there to suffer, that goes against the whole idea of them having no evil within them. They would be total assholes, regardless of what kind of person armus was before they met him.
When Odo was first discovered, Dr Mora didn't know he was alive. Something similar could have happened.
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Old September 5 2012, 12:30 PM   #22
Timo
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

If they met some being, and turned him into an evil pile of sludge, and left him there to suffer, that goes against the whole idea of them having no evil within them.
Evil is always arbitrary, so we aren't in any position to define "no evil" for these entities. Moreover, evil is always relative, and the suffering imposed on Armus would be no more evil than the suffering imposed on a convict by the judge who lawfully put him in jail, or by the witness who told the truth about his crime.

If there indeed was any suffering there, that is. Armus on his own private planet seemed to be having great fun with his victims. Being bored between victims is something he might feel miffed about, but it's also something he would blatantly lie about to anybody bothering to listen.

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Old September 5 2012, 11:43 PM   #23
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

Timo wrote: View Post
If they met some being, and turned him into an evil pile of sludge, and left him there to suffer, that goes against the whole idea of them having no evil within them.
Evil is always arbitrary, so we aren't in any position to define "no evil" for these entities. Moreover, evil is always relative, and the suffering imposed on Armus would be no more evil than the suffering imposed on a convict by the judge who lawfully put him in jail, or by the witness who told the truth about his crime.

If there indeed was any suffering there, that is. Armus on his own private planet seemed to be having great fun with his victims. Being bored between victims is something he might feel miffed about, but it's also something he would blatantly lie about to anybody bothering to listen.

Timo Saloniemi
It was extremely obvious that he was suffering on that planet, alone, with nothing but his own festering hate to accompany him, whether he would admit it or not. Hence the screaming in torturous agony when Picard left him. A victim now and then between the eons wouldn't change that. Any race that would leave any being there willingly as a punishment would be considered cruel and unusual.

It's just utterly obvious he is not a founder when you look at all the facts.

-Gamma quadrant and Vagra II are seperated by an extreme distance. Founders extremely, extraordinarily unlikely to be from Vagra II
-Armus's description of his creators sounds like nothing remotely close to the Founders.
-Founders and other changelings like Odo or Laas have obvious negative qualities to their personalities. Insecurity, hatred, capable of orchestrating massive attacks on civilians, prejudice, violence, anger, etc.
-Armus has telekenetic powers that the Founders lack.
-Armus shows no ability to shape shift beyond a pool and a pile of sludge.
-Armus was capable of generating, around itself, an intense undefined energy field. With this energy field, it was capable of blocking sensors, communications, and transporters without the aid of any scientific equipment. The Founders simply could not do anything like this.

When you start saying things like "well let's not take that literally" or "poetic justice" or "Well maybe racism isn't that evil" (in the star trek universe for pete's sake) to excuse obvious contradictions with the theory, then it's a bad theory.
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Last edited by Mr_Homn; September 6 2012 at 12:21 AM.
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Old September 6 2012, 12:02 AM   #24
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

Really Armus saying he was created from the hatred of superior beings is enough to nix this one.... the Founders were still chalk full of hate up until the last episode of DS9.
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Old September 6 2012, 12:22 AM   #25
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

R. Star wrote: View Post
Really Armus saying he was created from the hatred of superior beings is enough to nix this one.... the Founders were still chalk full of hate up until the last episode of DS9.


I agree.

Edit- I was going to go into more detail but I think my position has already been clearly stated.
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Last edited by Mr_Homn; September 6 2012 at 12:24 AM. Reason: nevermind
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Old September 6 2012, 02:40 AM   #26
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

Whoever left Armus there was some angelic do-gooder race when they left. I get the impression that when they left the evil/negative substance, they didn't foresee it coming together to form armus, and probably never realized his existence.. because knowing that, and not doing anything about it, would seem pretty callous to me.

Star Trek Encyclopedia says the race that created Armus was native to Vagra II. So that rules out the Founders too, if it's to be believed. Maybe it was the metrons. With their immense power, they could be said to be "titans", and they seem to be pretty do gooder-ish. Well, maybe a little arrogant, but that's about it.

[IMG wrote:

http://mimg.ugo.com/201011/132077/cuts/the-metrons_528_poster.jpg[/IMG]

In DS9, there is mention of a "metron consortium"... according to "Star Trek Star Charts" the metron consortium is in the beta quadrant. I can't find any information as to what quadrant Vagra II is in, though. Just that it's in the Zed Lapis sector

I guess Vagra II's quadrant would be irrelevent, though, since the original inhabitants obviously don't live on Vagra II anymore.
The Metrons were hardly angelic...they put Kirk and the Gorn captain on a planet to fight to the death. Communication between each being's respective ship was not allowed, etc.

The Organians are probably the 'nicest' race in all of Star Trek, but it surely wouldn't be them, either. It's probably a race we never saw on screen, kind of like the first species assimilated by the Borg.
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Old September 6 2012, 02:57 AM   #27
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

Maybe this is how Armus was created
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Old September 6 2012, 04:51 AM   #28
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

Captain McBain wrote: View Post
Whoever left Armus there was some angelic do-gooder race when they left. I get the impression that when they left the evil/negative substance, they didn't foresee it coming together to form armus, and probably never realized his existence.. because knowing that, and not doing anything about it, would seem pretty callous to me.

Star Trek Encyclopedia says the race that created Armus was native to Vagra II. So that rules out the Founders too, if it's to be believed. Maybe it was the metrons. With their immense power, they could be said to be "titans", and they seem to be pretty do gooder-ish. Well, maybe a little arrogant, but that's about it.

[IMG wrote:

http://mimg.ugo.com/201011/132077/cuts/the-metrons_528_poster.jpg[/IMG]

In DS9, there is mention of a "metron consortium"... according to "Star Trek Star Charts" the metron consortium is in the beta quadrant. I can't find any information as to what quadrant Vagra II is in, though. Just that it's in the Zed Lapis sector

I guess Vagra II's quadrant would be irrelevent, though, since the original inhabitants obviously don't live on Vagra II anymore.
The Metrons were hardly angelic...they put Kirk and the Gorn captain on a planet to fight to the death. Communication between each being's respective ship was not allowed, etc.

The Organians are probably the 'nicest' race in all of Star Trek, but it surely wouldn't be them, either. It's probably a race we never saw on screen, kind of like the first species assimilated by the Borg.
Oh I agree, and I prefer it to be a race we never saw on screen anyway, because it makes the universe a bigger place. Not everything has to be explained. I just wanted to show that there are other races that would make way more sense than the founders. You're right that Organians would have been an even better example. They are clearly total pacifists, and they are very powerful, and their true form could be described as dazzling beauty.
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Old September 6 2012, 08:07 AM   #29
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

By saying that "the Founders hate humans so they can't have shed all their evil" you are discounting the fact that the Founders may not have viewed that as evil.
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Old September 6 2012, 02:07 PM   #30
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

It wasn't even just humans. It was all humanoids which covers the vast majority of all sentient life in the Trekverse. They can put whatever labels they want on it to justify it to themselves, but there's no getting around the fact they were morally lacking... not because they -had- the phobias of the solids but because they sought to control and dominate them through the Dominion.

Besides... that light thing Armus killed Yar with. The Founders never displayed abilities like that, or those to absorb phaser fire. Mirror Odo blew up quite easily and even the Martok changeling died after a few shots.
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