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Old August 29 2012, 03:05 PM   #136
Robert Maxwell
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Re: Bill Nye: “Creationism is not Appropriate for Children”

Asbo Zaprudder wrote: View Post
gturner wrote: View Post
I'm beginning to suspect there's more to the terms "hardshell Baptist" and "soft-shell Baptist" than I had assumed. Maybe it has something to do with crabs, like Big-Endians and Little-Endians in Gulliver's Travels.
Do Baptists walk sideways? I'd never noticed.
No, but some of them have a wide stance.

(I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.)
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Old August 29 2012, 03:32 PM   #137
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Re: Bill Nye: “Creationism is not Appropriate for Children”

I was going to clarify some remarks I made earlier in the thread, and explain why I said some of the things I did, but it's not worth the effort.

Bottom line, as far as I'm concerned, is that the efforts of people to corrupt science and science eduction for religious reasons are unwelcome and will not be tolerated. Attempts to dress the vehicles of such efforts (which are analogous to pathogens) up in scientific jargon fail because the bread and butter of science is detecting falsehood.

Of course, the reason why science education is targeted is transparent: it is necessary to compromise the ability of practicing scientists to detect falsehood in order for counterfeit science to be passed off as genuine, and the only way to undermine that ability is to delude the minds of practicing scientists.

This is one reason why I said upthread that creationism is really a political movement, rather than an intellectual one.
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Last edited by CorporalCaptain; August 29 2012 at 04:52 PM. Reason: clarification
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Old August 29 2012, 06:51 PM   #138
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Re: Bill Nye: “Creationism is not Appropriate for Children”

Dorian Thompson wrote: View Post
I figured out creationism wasn't real when it dawned on me that Cain and Abel would have had to fuck their sisters for the human race to continue. I remember the kids way back in grade school asking how Cain and Abel could have had babies if there were no one else.
Or, after Cain slew Abel, he went off to the land of Nod where he knew his wife and started a family. This would mean that Cain married either a sister or a niece or some other relation and their children had children, etc. Of course at this point, there's the question of why her origin wasn't mentioned, but even more so the fact that inbreeding had to have taken place.

How do they explain it? They claim "it is not a problem early on in the human race because the genetic line was so pure." What folly. The birth defects tend to arise because the genes are too closely matched. But in any case, the argument always falls flat because someone will say "God permitted inbreeding for a period of time so that there wouldn't be birth defects." And only once it started to become a problem, was incest finally banned in Leviticus.

That's what gets me the most, is how people concoct assumptions for things excluded from the text. So much for the perfect work. "But if it covered everything, the book would become too unwieldy." That's just a cop out for obvious flaws/shortcomings. If the loose ends were tied up, I don't think it would've increased the book by more than 10%. It's clear that there are about a dozen specific "holes" that are raised as imperfections. It's not hundreds. Why not prevent those ambiguities or imperfections to exist in the first place? THIS is a real problem, because if it causes significant confusion or entices people to question their faith, then it's not a perfect work.
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Old August 29 2012, 07:21 PM   #139
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Re: Bill Nye: “Creationism is not Appropriate for Children”

Well, the story also omits how Adam and Eve traveled from the Russia to the fertile crescent. Obviously the Garden of Eden was in the old Soviet Union because where else could two people have no house, no clothes, and one piece of fruit between them and think they were living in paradise?

The Adam and Eve story in the Koran is a bit more interesting because in it Allah made Adam from black mud, obviously the same genetically active bio-material the Ancient Engineers were playing around with in Prometheus.
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Old August 29 2012, 07:51 PM   #140
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Re: Bill Nye: “Creationism is not Appropriate for Children”

I prefer the Book of Lilith.
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Old August 29 2012, 07:54 PM   #141
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Re: Bill Nye: “Creationism is not Appropriate for Children”

^ IIRC, the Koran also makes allusions to Eve's daughter Lillith, who became the progenitor of all modern demons.

I've also heard that the Tanakh implies that humans OTHER than Adam and Eve existed, but that the two of them were the only two who were created by God for some higher purpose. That would seem to suggest the actual lineage of the Chosen People is more properly traced to Adam than to Abraham, but that Abraham gets the credit mainly because he's the one who actually restored the covenant with God after his ancestors had fallen out of favor.

Of course, the REAL reason for the discrepancy is because the Bible is an amalgamation of stories written at different times by different people, many of whom did not actually worship the same god or even a SINGLE god and the stories were adapted into monotheism later. For the canaanites from which the Exodus story is derived, the God of Abraham is an entirely different figure from the creator god in Genesis, and there's even some question of whether the first two chapters of Genesis were even written by the same culture.

It's like if you tried to create a coherent religious text by splicing together elements of Star Trek, Star Wars, Babylon 5 and Doctor Who in the overall framework of scientology.
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Old August 29 2012, 07:56 PM   #142
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Re: Bill Nye: “Creationism is not Appropriate for Children”

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
^ IIRC, the Koran also makes allusions to Eve's daughter Lillith, who became the progenitor of all modern demons.

I've also heard that the Tanakh implies that humans OTHER than Adam and Eve existed, but that the two of them were the only two who were created by God for some higher purpose. That would seem to suggest the actual lineage of the Chosen People is more properly traced to Adam than to Abraham, but that Abraham gets the credit mainly because he's the one who actually restored the covenant with God after his ancestors had fallen out of favor.

Of course, the REAL reason for the discrepancy is because the Bible is an amalgamation of stories written at different times by different people, many of whom did not actually worship the same god or even a SINGLE god and the stories were adapted into monotheism later. For the canaanites from which the Exodus story is derived, the God of Abraham is an entirely different figure from the creator god in Genesis, and there's even some question of whether the first two chapters of Genesis were even written by the same culture.
Yeah, but good luck convincing a True Believer of any of that.
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Old August 29 2012, 07:59 PM   #143
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Re: Bill Nye: “Creationism is not Appropriate for Children”

I've always wondered why the English translations say "God of Abraham", which is redundant in monotheism, and not just "God".
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Old August 29 2012, 08:12 PM   #144
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Re: Bill Nye: “Creationism is not Appropriate for Children”

Genesis is especially funny, because it displays God in a pretty bad light. He's portrayed as a sort of tyrant who created the world, men (and women ) for his pleasure, and tried to keep them uneducated with a lie. He told them they would die when eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And that was simply not true. Someone else came along and told humans: you are not going to die when you eat from it, try it. So they ate from the tree. And suddenly they became aware that they were naked and covered themselves. They, for the first time, decided for themselves (!).

FREE WILL!

And that's when God became angry and casted them out. He cast them out with the specific reason to prevent them from eating from the tree of life. Because then they would have been just like him. And the only way to prevent that was to cast them out. Because he, God, himself, didn't have powers over the trees. He couldn't remove them. And he couldn't revert the effects from eating from the tree. He couldn't make Adam and Eve dumb again. And if they ever ate from that other tree, he wouldn't be able to revert that either. They became self conscious, and he couldn't do anything about it. Only thing he could do was to deny humans access to paradise. He PUNISHED them because they became smart, for crying out loud!

I find that very interesting. I noticed that as a child already. Essentially it's the basic story about tyrants and the uneducated population, and how you gain power and strength from knowledge, and how the higher levels become very disturbed by that.

Last edited by JarodRussell; August 29 2012 at 08:24 PM.
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Old August 29 2012, 08:15 PM   #145
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Re: Bill Nye: “Creationism is not Appropriate for Children”

I always wondered about all the people in hot parts of the planet who don't now nor ever did cover themselves. As a child, I wondered. What about them?
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Old August 29 2012, 08:42 PM   #146
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Re: Bill Nye: “Creationism is not Appropriate for Children”

^ Out of context that sounds awful.
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Old August 30 2012, 02:33 AM   #147
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Re: Bill Nye: “Creationism is not Appropriate for Children”

Apologies if I missed it, but has anyone yet posted a link to Bill Nye's expansion on/clarification of what he said in his initial remarks?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505270_1...king-religion/

It seems that while I still think he went too far in the way he expressed himself (he should have better explained that it was literalism that was the issue and not all belief, and should've suggested open debate and access to information as the prescription, not suppression of views), he's actually not so far off from my own perspective, that the problem is fundamentalism intruding on science, rather than the problem being faith as a whole.
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Old August 30 2012, 03:07 AM   #148
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Re: Bill Nye: “Creationism is not Appropriate for Children”

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Apologies if I missed it, but has anyone yet posted a link to Bill Nye's expansion on/clarification of what he said in his initial remarks?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505270_1...king-religion/

It seems that while I still think he went too far in the way he expressed himself (he should have better explained that it was literalism that was the issue and not all belief, and should've suggested open debate and access to information as the prescription, not suppression of views), he's actually not so far off from my own perspective, that the problem is fundamentalism intruding on science, rather than the problem being faith as a whole.
To me it was completely clear the first time around. Bill doesn't go hating on religions. This was about Creationism directly interfering with scientific processes, and the effect it has on children.
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Old August 30 2012, 06:57 AM   #149
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Re: Bill Nye: “Creationism is not Appropriate for Children”

Gary7 wrote: View Post
That's what gets me the most, is how people concoct assumptions for things excluded from the text. So much for the perfect work. "But if it covered everything, the book would become too unwieldy." That's just a cop out for obvious flaws/shortcomings. If the loose ends were tied up, I don't think it would've increased the book by more than 10%. It's clear that there are about a dozen specific "holes" that are raised as imperfections. It's not hundreds. Why not prevent those ambiguities or imperfections to exist in the first place? THIS is a real problem, because if it causes significant confusion or entices people to question their faith, then it's not a perfect work.
I think a lot of these problems come out of people reading the OT books without taking genre into account. The creation story/stories are not about material creation, and have nothing to do with modern science. They are about functional creation, that is, the ancient Israelite view on how the world is organized against chaos. This is pretty typical in comparison with surrounding cultures: Baal (Canaanite God) kills Tiamat (sea serpent, with water representing chaos) and uses her body to create earth and such (bringing order). What sets Israel apart is that they don't ascribe any gods to the lights in the sky or the seas or underworld. Everything is creation, and God "rests" with it as his "footstool." He doesn't need to use anything to create either, as Baal or Marduk did, but simply speaks. So functionally, rather than a world ruled by capricious gods who use humans as their slaves, the world is intentionally created to be "good" with humans as the image and representatives of God. The question of material creation doesn't enter into the thinking behind it at all.

In other words, it's not a science textbook. It's poetry. Fundamentalists who hold it up otherwise destroy the very text they are so worried about protecting the "inerrancy" of.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
I've also heard that the Tanakh implies that humans OTHER than Adam and Eve existed, but that the two of them were the only two who were created by God for some higher purpose. That would seem to suggest the actual lineage of the Chosen People is more properly traced to Adam than to Abraham, but that Abraham gets the credit mainly because he's the one who actually restored the covenant with God after his ancestors had fallen out of favor.
The Bible can be read that way too. The first creation account just speaks of God creating men and women. Cain is worried about other men killing him (not mentioned as relatives), and, of course, there is the whole "did he marry his sister or someone else?" conundrum that's being discussed.

Of course, the REAL reason for the discrepancy is because the Bible is an amalgamation of stories written at different times by different people, many of whom did not actually worship the same god or even a SINGLE god and the stories were adapted into monotheism later. For the canaanites from which the Exodus story is derived, the God of Abraham is an entirely different figure from the creator god in Genesis, and there's even some question of whether the first two chapters of Genesis were even written by the same culture.

It's like if you tried to create a coherent religious text by splicing together elements of Star Trek, Star Wars, Babylon 5 and Doctor Who in the overall framework of scientology.
There are plenty of theories regarding source criticism, none of them all that conclusive. I've never heard of the Exodus story being a Canaanite one originally, but then, my father-in-law is convinced that they all actually lived up in Scandinavia during the last warm snap, and a mini-ice age forced everyone down to what is now the Middle East. So everything from Homer's stories to the ancient Biblical ones actually took place in Norway. This is how people find things to get PhDs out of.

The Israelite literature does stand out from other Mesopotamian/Egyptian/Babylonian in some pretty significant ways, though, and there are some strong arguments for good internal coherence, so I wouldn't write them off as amalgamations quite as extremely as you do.
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Old August 30 2012, 12:34 PM   #150
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Re: Bill Nye: “Creationism is not Appropriate for Children”

The stories in the bible are fables, tales. It's about the message, not the details. Anyone who takes them literally does it wrong.


But then again I'm amazed how anyone can take the texts literally when they don't make any sense that way. Talk about canon violations!
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