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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old September 15 2012, 06:56 AM   #1
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Should they have waited a year or two to release Generations?

All Good Things and Generations were done pretty much right after each other. After filming for the series was done, the cast had like 10 days rest before filming for Generations started. I heard Patrick Stewart was really overworked. I'm really amazed AGT turned out as good as it did.

Now this somewhat explains how sloppy Generations turned out. It really could have had another look over at the script.

Was there any reason why they were rushing the actors onto filming for Generations? Maybe the movie would have turned out better if they had more time off before doing their first movie?

Also I think Generations was released way too soon after the show ended. It felt less special because we got the movie only months after the show ended. If they had wait a year or two before filming and releasing it, they might have fixed the issues with the script and made a better movie in the end.
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Old September 15 2012, 01:06 PM   #2
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Re: Should they have waited a year or two to release Generations?

Paramount wasn't interested in a decent product, only milking Trek for all the cash it could.
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Old September 15 2012, 01:28 PM   #3
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Re: Should they have waited a year or two to release Generations?

The X-Files released a movie during the TV run and wasn't as shabby in its storytelling. Generations needed to be an idea by somebody responsible for other successful films, and had never written for the Star Trek universe before. Rick Berman overseeing that it didn't stay too far from TNG's style.

Then again, you can argue that's essentially what happened with Nemesis. But I'd maintain, released at any other earlier point and it wouldn't be quite as hated as it apparently was.

Alternatively bring together a writing team, comprised of one who had been responsible for TOS movies and another from the TNG TV show. It would've been interesting to hear what ideas Nicholas Meyer and Leonard Nimoy might've had and then somebody to see that the TNG cast walk away from their storyline as the leading cast members, with TOS as prominent guest stars.
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Old September 15 2012, 02:51 PM   #4
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Re: Should they have waited a year or two to release Generations?

It wouldn't have mattered because they would have used the same script regardless. They were quite happy with it, IIRC.

Generations was made immediately after TNG's finale because it was three years after Star Trek VI* and Paramount wanted to capitalize on the success of TNG, which was at its peak in popularity at the time. A year or two off might have given Patrick Stewart a break and Rick Berman an easier workload, but I don't think it would have changed anything as far as the final outcome of Generations is concerned.


*Paramount was regularly cranking out a new Trek movie every two to three years back then.
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Old September 15 2012, 10:18 PM   #5
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Re: Should they have waited a year or two to release Generations?

I would argue the exact opposite of the original poster's premise. I think too much time and thought went into the making of Generations.

I agree with Nicholas Meyer's basic philosophies that "art thrives on restrictions" and that some forms of art, including filmmaking, are best done in a "pressure cooker" environment, as he puts it. His version of the screenplay for TWOK, for example, was famously done in just twelve days.

Virtually everyone, including Rick Berman, Ron Moore, and Brannon Braga themselves, have agreed that "All Good Things..." was superior to Generations. Yet Moore and Braga had at least a year or more to work on the writing of Generations, went through rewrite after rewrite, polished, adjusted, tweaked, etc., while they only had about two weeks in which to write "All Good Things..." And look at the comparative results.

When you have too much time, you have plenty of time to obsess and to adjust things that should be left alone. You also have plenty of time for studio executives to get into the game and make demands about the script. Had Moore and Braga been left to their own devices, and been working on a tighter schedule, I daresay we would have ended up with a better final product.

Now, the question of whether or not Generations was released too soon after the ending of TNG is a totally separate question, and I'd argue that it was. It didn't leave enough time for TNG fans to really build up an appetite for a new adventure with the TNG crew and make it something special. But that affects box office performance primarily, and does not play into the quality of the story.
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Old September 16 2012, 02:16 AM   #6
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Re: Should they have waited a year or two to release Generations?

Generations didn't make sense.

It sucked the moment it was released, and it would still suck a year afterward.

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Old September 16 2012, 04:41 AM   #7
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Re: Should they have waited a year or two to release Generations?

I liked Generations. There were a number of plot points "imposed" on the film, like the destruction of the D, and Kirk involved in the film, etc., but I think the story is fairly original and entertaining, and the only underwhelming part is Kirk's death. The so-called "plot holes" are no more numerous thany any other Trek films.

As for the timing, why wait? It had been three years since a previous film, and the show had been off the air for six months. FC did better at the box office and had LESS of a gap in release than TUC and GEN did.
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Old September 16 2012, 04:58 AM   #8
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Re: Should they have waited a year or two to release Generations?

One of the biggest chasms of a plot whole in GEN is Picard can choose any point in time to go to in order to stop Soren. When does he choose, before Soren destroys the Armargosa array, no, before Soren and the Klingons kidnap Geordi, No. Before the scientists on the Armargosa array are killed no. Instead he picks ten minutes before Soren launches the weapon at ther Veridian sun.
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Old September 16 2012, 05:11 AM   #9
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Re: Should they have waited a year or two to release Generations?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
One of the biggest chasms of a plot whole in GEN is Picard can choose any point in time to go to in order to stop Soren. When does he choose, before Soren destroys the Armargosa array, no, before Soren and the Klingons kidnap Geordi, No. Before the scientists on the Armargosa array are killed no. Instead he picks ten minutes before Soren launches the weapon at ther Veridian sun.
I generally liked Generations, although my excitement for the movie probably warped my taste a little bit, but yes...the good old plot hole called "the Nexus." If we are to believe what we're told about the Nexus, can it then be argued that when Picard left the Nexus to go to a very nonsensical point in time, that everything after that is still in the Nexus? I mean what's to stop Soran from doing the exact same thing and speaking of which, he's still there anyway, right? For me, that killed the movie and not to mention the lame death of Kirk. But I can honestly say that I like it more than I liked Insurrection and I didn't mind the dark theme to it.
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Old September 16 2012, 05:20 AM   #10
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Re: Should they have waited a year or two to release Generations?

los2188 wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
One of the biggest chasms of a plot whole in GEN is Picard can choose any point in time to go to in order to stop Soren. When does he choose, before Soren destroys the Armargosa array, no, before Soren and the Klingons kidnap Geordi, No. Before the scientists on the Armargosa array are killed no. Instead he picks ten minutes before Soren launches the weapon at ther Veridian sun.
I generally liked Generations, although my excitement for the movie probably warped my taste a little bit, but yes...the good old plot hole called "the Nexus." If we are to believe what we're told about the Nexus, can it then be argued that when Picard left the Nexus to go to a very nonsensical point in time, that everything after that is still in the Nexus? I mean what's to stop Soran from doing the exact same thing and speaking of which, he's still there anyway, right? For me, that killed the movie and not to mention the lame death of Kirk. But I can honestly say that I like it more than I liked Insurrection and I didn't mind the dark theme to it.

That whole thing was so stupid and lazy.

The writers could have easily erased that plothole with a single line change in the script explaining that when a person leaves the Nexus, they can only go back in time few minutes from when they first entered the Nexus.

There.

Problem soved!

None of this go back time to whenever you want bullshit!
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Old September 16 2012, 05:49 AM   #11
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Re: Should they have waited a year or two to release Generations?

Dream wrote: View Post
los2188 wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
One of the biggest chasms of a plot whole in GEN is Picard can choose any point in time to go to in order to stop Soren. When does he choose, before Soren destroys the Armargosa array, no, before Soren and the Klingons kidnap Geordi, No. Before the scientists on the Armargosa array are killed no. Instead he picks ten minutes before Soren launches the weapon at ther Veridian sun.
I generally liked Generations, although my excitement for the movie probably warped my taste a little bit, but yes...the good old plot hole called "the Nexus." If we are to believe what we're told about the Nexus, can it then be argued that when Picard left the Nexus to go to a very nonsensical point in time, that everything after that is still in the Nexus? I mean what's to stop Soran from doing the exact same thing and speaking of which, he's still there anyway, right? For me, that killed the movie and not to mention the lame death of Kirk. But I can honestly say that I like it more than I liked Insurrection and I didn't mind the dark theme to it.

That whole thing was so stupid and lazy.

The writers could have easily erased that plothole with a single line change in the script explaining that when a person leaves the Nexus, they can only go back in time few minutes from when they first entered the Nexus.

There.

Problem soved!

None of this go back time to whenever you want bullshit!

Agreed. I don't know why they didn't just explain it that way. "You can only go back to where the Nexus has just been to." It kind of makes sense, too. I don't know why they chose to emphasize the whole "you can go anywhere, anytime" thing when it just made Picard look stupid.
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Old September 16 2012, 06:58 AM   #12
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Re: Should they have waited a year or two to release Generations?

sonak wrote: View Post
Dream wrote: View Post
los2188 wrote: View Post

I generally liked Generations, although my excitement for the movie probably warped my taste a little bit, but yes...the good old plot hole called "the Nexus." If we are to believe what we're told about the Nexus, can it then be argued that when Picard left the Nexus to go to a very nonsensical point in time, that everything after that is still in the Nexus? I mean what's to stop Soran from doing the exact same thing and speaking of which, he's still there anyway, right? For me, that killed the movie and not to mention the lame death of Kirk. But I can honestly say that I like it more than I liked Insurrection and I didn't mind the dark theme to it.

That whole thing was so stupid and lazy.

The writers could have easily erased that plothole with a single line change in the script explaining that when a person leaves the Nexus, they can only go back in time few minutes from when they first entered the Nexus.

There.

Problem soved!

None of this go back time to whenever you want bullshit!

Agreed. I don't know why they didn't just explain it that way. "You can only go back to where the Nexus has just been to." It kind of makes sense, too. I don't know why they chose to emphasize the whole "you can go anywhere, anytime" thing when it just made Picard look stupid.
The problem with this theory is what happens when the person got there by ship, as Kirk had.

Does the Nexus re-constitute the destroyed starship upon exit?
If two people got into the Nexus via different means, how can they both exit at the same point?

IMO, the entire concept of the Nexus needed to be scrapped.Here's why.

The point of the Nexus is that its whatever the user's idea of paradise is. Fair enough. If its that realistic that the person gets exactly what they've always wished for, WHY WOULD THEY EVER LEAVE?

Think. You're cooking perfect scrambled eggs and toast, about to eat breakfast upstairs with your supermodel wife when some space jockey in a Starfleet uniform wants your help to stop a villain you've never heard of with a doomsday rocket.

You're in a world without disease, money, debt, war, evil, or crime.You can spend the rest of your days ageless able to pursue whatever you want for all time-and some bald guy wants your help to fix a mess in the "previous world".

My words to Picard would be "thanks, but no thanks."

Not "well heck yes, I'll just leave Paradise and help you kill some villian ive never heard of."

If the decision had been reached at the end of a long discourse through the movie on the nature of existence and reality vs personal reality, or holding to ethics in the face of immortality , it wouldn't be so bad. Something as profound as the Nexus needed to either be explored in greater detail with the consequences accordingly rendered, or taken out of the story completely.

That's just one side of things.Let us not forget the Enterprise D's final hurrah. Slain in battle with a puny Klingon Bird of Prey.

Not to say that Klingon ships aren't formidable, but come on. That's like an Iranian escort cruiser sinking the USS Nimitz. The Enterprise had more than enough firepower to turn the Duras' Sisters ship to a gas cloud shields or no shields.
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Old September 16 2012, 03:41 PM   #13
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Re: Should they have waited a year or two to release Generations?

Silversmok3 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Dream wrote: View Post


That whole thing was so stupid and lazy.

The writers could have easily erased that plothole with a single line change in the script explaining that when a person leaves the Nexus, they can only go back in time few minutes from when they first entered the Nexus.

There.

Problem soved!

None of this go back time to whenever you want bullshit!

Agreed. I don't know why they didn't just explain it that way. "You can only go back to where the Nexus has just been to." It kind of makes sense, too. I don't know why they chose to emphasize the whole "you can go anywhere, anytime" thing when it just made Picard look stupid.
The problem with this theory is what happens when the person got there by ship, as Kirk had.

Does the Nexus re-constitute the destroyed starship upon exit?
If two people got into the Nexus via different means, how can they both exit at the same point?

IMO, the entire concept of the Nexus needed to be scrapped.Here's why.

The point of the Nexus is that its whatever the user's idea of paradise is. Fair enough. If its that realistic that the person gets exactly what they've always wished for, WHY WOULD THEY EVER LEAVE?

Think. You're cooking perfect scrambled eggs and toast, about to eat breakfast upstairs with your supermodel wife when some space jockey in a Starfleet uniform wants your help to stop a villain you've never heard of with a doomsday rocket.

You're in a world without disease, money, debt, war, evil, or crime.You can spend the rest of your days ageless able to pursue whatever you want for all time-and some bald guy wants your help to fix a mess in the "previous world".

My words to Picard would be "thanks, but no thanks."

Not "well heck yes, I'll just leave Paradise and help you kill some villian ive never heard of."

If the decision had been reached at the end of a long discourse through the movie on the nature of existence and reality vs personal reality, or holding to ethics in the face of immortality , it wouldn't be so bad. Something as profound as the Nexus needed to either be explored in greater detail with the consequences accordingly rendered, or taken out of the story completely.

That's just one side of things.Let us not forget the Enterprise D's final hurrah. Slain in battle with a puny Klingon Bird of Prey.

Not to say that Klingon ships aren't formidable, but come on. That's like an Iranian escort cruiser sinking the USS Nimitz. The Enterprise had more than enough firepower to turn the Duras' Sisters ship to a gas cloud shields or no shields.

Well, the Nexus was thought up to bring Kirk and Picard together without resorting to simple time travel. But I agree with you-if I found myself in a paradise dimension, I don't think I'd be willing to leave so easily, and especially not so quickly. So what they did was make it more like a holodeck, so nothing felt "real," but that doesn't seem to jibe with the way Guinan or Soran thought of it, where it was supposed to feel like true paradise or something. Yet Picard and Kirk shrug it off in about five minutes each.

The way it's portrayed, you wonder why Soran didn't just spend the rest of his life in a holodeck with a recreation of his wife and family rather than coming up with his elaborate plan.
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Old September 16 2012, 04:13 PM   #14
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Re: Should they have waited a year or two to release Generations?

Maybe the Nexus just had a different effect on the El-Aurian brain?
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Old September 16 2012, 04:53 PM   #15
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Re: Should they have waited a year or two to release Generations?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Paramount wasn't interested in a decent product, only milking Trek for all the cash it could.
Yep.

Thread over.
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