RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,156
Posts: 5,402,228
Members: 24,749
Currently online: 622
Newest member: Legends

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Time’s Orphan
By: Michelle on Aug 30

September-October Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Lee Passes
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Trek Merchandise Sale
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek #39 Villain Revealed
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Trek Big Bang Figures
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek Seekers Cover Art
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Fan Film Axanar Kickstarter Success
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Two New Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Actor Wins Emmy
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 7 2012, 11:41 AM   #121
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

The plot did desperately need a rationale for Spock to create the timehole even after failing to save Romulus.

Or, more generally, the timehole should have come to being somehow, despite Romulus being destroyed. Perhaps Spock would deploy the Romulus-saving gimmick in time, but it would turn out not to work after all, and all it would accomplish would be to send Spock and Nero to the past? Nero could then blame Spock on empty promises, rather than on being late.

On another dramatic level, though, it is probably a good idea to show and tell that Spock did accomplish at least something, like, save the universe. Nero's persecution of him then sounds more unjust, which is good for the drama.

But the whole matter could definitely have been handled more elegantly, paying greater attention to the mechanism that destroyed Nero's home, family and life, and to the way Spock failed to prevent that - and possibly to the way Nero would put things right again by wreaking suitable havoc, rather than just having him wreak the havoc out of simple grief.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 7 2012, 02:32 PM   #122
Nerys Myk
Fleet Admiral
 
Nerys Myk's Avatar
 
Location: House of Kang, now with ridges
Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

The "timehole" was an unexpected side effect of the red matter blackhole.
__________________
The boring one, the one with Khan, the one where Spock returns, the one with whales, the dumb one, the last one, the one with Kirk, the one with the Borg, the stupid one, the bad one, the new one, the other one with Khan.
Nerys Myk is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 7 2012, 02:48 PM   #123
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

Perhaps, perhaps not. What is certain is that it absolutely needed to be created or there would have been no movie. And the way the movie is written is one possible answer to the pressing problem of having Romulus be lost and the timehole be created. It's just that the movie could have been written in a couple of other ways to this desired end, too.

Interestingly, Spock Prime never claims the timehole was an accident or even an unintended side effect. For all we know, he used red matter specifically because he knew this would create a timehole which would be the only way to reverse the supernova explosion! And this might be why he had "little time" even after Romulus was lost: because the plan involved time travel, it could still succeed despite the unthinkable already having happened.

Whether it did succeed or not, we don't know. Perhaps Spock indeed saved Romulus, but Nero was too stricken with grief to understand this or accept his say-so?

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 7 2012, 03:06 PM   #124
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

The early version of the STXI script has Spock open a second black hole with the aim of going back in time and having another chance to save Romulus: http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Trek.html

SPOCK PRIME (V.O.)
I realized: a large black hole could
destroy the supernova. A smaller one...
could be my escape. Could send me back
in time, allowing me to complete my
mission. So I created a black hole...

Buuuuut, since the movie's writers, Bob Orci and Alex Kurtzman, co-plotted the Countdown comic with Mike Johnson and his people, I think we can safely say that's more or less how they envisioned the supernova disaster for the "finished product"
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 7 2012, 04:00 PM   #125
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

That script brings up an intriguing tidbit: that this mindmeld scene of Vulcans interacting with Spock Prime was supposed to involve them studying the supernova choreography in graphic form.

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a...ekxihd1956.jpg

Doesn't seem likely that this brief scene would have been filmed with the "hologram of supernova" graphics, or even filmed with the intention of adding such graphics. But seeing those would have been illuminating.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 7 2012, 04:24 PM   #126
Mars
Captain
 
Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

Timo wrote: View Post
Perhaps, perhaps not. What is certain is that it absolutely needed to be created or there would have been no movie. And the way the movie is written is one possible answer to the pressing problem of having Romulus be lost and the timehole be created. It's just that the movie could have been written in a couple of other ways to this desired end, too.

Interestingly, Spock Prime never claims the timehole was an accident or even an unintended side effect. For all we know, he used red matter specifically because he knew this would create a timehole which would be the only way to reverse the supernova explosion! And this might be why he had "little time" even after Romulus was lost: because the plan involved time travel, it could still succeed despite the unthinkable already having happened.

Whether it did succeed or not, we don't know. Perhaps Spock indeed saved Romulus, but Nero was too stricken with grief to understand this or accept his say-so?

Timo Saloniemi
It is interesting that Nero wanted to get revenge for the destruction of his planet which has not happened yet, rather than just to save his planet. That was the most difficult part to get across to the audience, because the time travel itself is a means to save Romulus. It would be similar to Picard wanting to get revenge on the Borg in the past for Borgifying Earth in the future. Nero certainly is a demented character. If Nero were to drop red matter on the unexploded star then that would change the future and Nero's motivation for revenge would be erased.
Mars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 7 2012, 04:33 PM   #127
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

If Nero were to drop red matter on the unexploded star then that would change the future and Nero's motivation for revenge would be erased.
Only in the model where the same Romulus would rise from the ashes, so to speak. But tampering with time in 2258 ought to result in a different Romulus, one without Nero's beloved wife. So it makes sort of emotional sense for Nero to direct his rage that way.

In order to have Nero's actions make cold utilitarian sense, the writers could have invented a story where sacrificing Romulus would be necessary for stopping the supernova from doing further harm. Which is what would happen if the supernova came from the star of the Romulan home system: turning that star preemptively into a black hole would not be good news for Romulus!

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 9 2012, 12:31 AM   #128
Mars
Captain
 
Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

Timo wrote: View Post
If Nero were to drop red matter on the unexploded star then that would change the future and Nero's motivation for revenge would be erased.
Only in the model where the same Romulus would rise from the ashes, so to speak. But tampering with time in 2258 ought to result in a different Romulus, one without Nero's beloved wife. So it makes sort of emotional sense for Nero to direct his rage that way.

In order to have Nero's actions make cold utilitarian sense, the writers could have invented a story where sacrificing Romulus would be necessary for stopping the supernova from doing further harm. Which is what would happen if the supernova came from the star of the Romulan home system: turning that star preemptively into a black hole would not be good news for Romulus!

Timo Saloniemi
Then the Romulan Star would be a red supergiant like Betelgeuse. Any chance that it is Betelgeuse?
Mars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 9 2012, 12:35 AM   #129
M'Sharak
Definitely Herbert. Maybe.
 
M'Sharak's Avatar
 
Location: Terra Inlandia
Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

Mars wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
If Nero were to drop red matter on the unexploded star then that would change the future and Nero's motivation for revenge would be erased.
Only in the model where the same Romulus would rise from the ashes, so to speak. But tampering with time in 2258 ought to result in a different Romulus, one without Nero's beloved wife. So it makes sort of emotional sense for Nero to direct his rage that way.

In order to have Nero's actions make cold utilitarian sense, the writers could have invented a story where sacrificing Romulus would be necessary for stopping the supernova from doing further harm. Which is what would happen if the supernova came from the star of the Romulan home system: turning that star preemptively into a black hole would not be good news for Romulus!

Timo Saloniemi
Then the Romulan Star would be a red supergiant like Betelgeuse. Any chance that it is Betelgeuse?
Would put the Romulan System in Federation space, so probably little chance.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Betelgeuse
__________________
"Recently my 8 year-old cousin asked me, with a wicked twinkle in his eye, if I'd ever microwaved a banana. I'm terrified to try, but I'm sure whatever happens—splattering, abrupt, radioactive—sounds exactly like an Annie Clark guitar solo."
M'Sharak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 9 2012, 10:35 AM   #130
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

Diane Duane's Rihannsu novels say the Romulan homestar was 128 Trianguli (and Vulcan, of course, is 40 Eridani dating back to James Blish's TOS episode novelizations in the 70's)
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 9 2012, 02:11 PM   #131
Mars
Captain
 
Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
Mars wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
Only in the model where the same Romulus would rise from the ashes, so to speak. But tampering with time in 2258 ought to result in a different Romulus, one without Nero's beloved wife. So it makes sort of emotional sense for Nero to direct his rage that way.

In order to have Nero's actions make cold utilitarian sense, the writers could have invented a story where sacrificing Romulus would be necessary for stopping the supernova from doing further harm. Which is what would happen if the supernova came from the star of the Romulan home system: turning that star preemptively into a black hole would not be good news for Romulus!

Timo Saloniemi
Then the Romulan Star would be a red supergiant like Betelgeuse. Any chance that it is Betelgeuse?
Would put the Romulan System in Federation space, so probably little chance.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Betelgeuse
I would find it hard to believe Betelgeuse would have any native races, since the Romulans are related to Vulcans, it stands to reason they came from somewhere else other than their native system. Betelgeuse is a huge star, it is the only one who's disk we can see other than our Sun, it radius is compared to the orbit of Jupiter, and it could go supernova at anytime, it if did go supernova it would be brighter than the Moon in our skies, but only temporarily so, and it is over 600 light years away.
Mars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 10 2012, 02:13 AM   #132
Dukhat
Commodore
 
Dukhat's Avatar
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

Mars wrote: View Post
I would find it hard to believe Betelgeuse would have any native races...
There are Betelgeusians in TMP.
__________________
“Don’t believe everything you read on the internet.”
– Benjamin Franklin
Dukhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 10 2012, 11:51 AM   #133
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

...Doesn't mean they would be natives, though.

Since the star going supernova surprised everybody, it's a bit unlikely that it would be of a type that could go supernova by modern reckoning. On the other hand, the star Nero emerged next to, in the teaser, does look like something that could blow up the classic supernova way in the near future. Odds of it being the Romulan homestar are a bit low, though, because Federation vessels supposedly aren't welcome in the Romulan home system in 2233 yet, and because the walla indicates there are Klingons in the system as well, supposedly no more welcome than the Feds. Conspicuous also is the absence of Romulans.

As for 128 Trianguli, it's a fictional star - but Triangulum (Australe) is a real, nice and tight asterism, a constellation that is contained in a small volume of space and not merely in a particular direction from Earth. So odds are that we could locate 128 TriA within that one. Not exactly a neighbor to 40 Eri, but not incredibly far away, either, just over a hundred lightyears or so. FWIW, it's not a red giant in Duane's fiction.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:25 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.