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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old August 28 2012, 08:12 PM   #31
Temis the Vorta
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Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
I'm trying to figure out if Old Spock would actually divulge this information to save the Romulans or if he would keep it to himself so as not to further pollute the timeline.
Theres no polluting the timeline problem. Spock is in a different reality, not the one he's seen the future of. He doesnt know the future. There's no way for him to pollute the timeline. And not to attempt to warn the Romulans would be morally untenable.

Spock can use his knowledge of various things that are likely to occur or exist, such as the Bajoran wormhole or the likely location of the Doomsday Machine in this time perios, to help the Feds stave off disasters.

There's no guarantee that either of those things still exist, of course. Spock can't really know just how much this timeline differs from his own, or whether his and Nero's incursions were the only diverenge. maybe there have been billions of divergences. it's a big universe and the changes would not necesarily be obvious but rather very diffuse.

And thats not even addressing the hilarity of a supernova that sneaks up on everyone rather than being a predictable part of a star's lifecycle, or even more hilairous, a supernova capable of endangering an entire galaxy.
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Old August 28 2012, 09:04 PM   #32
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Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

Fair enough. I suppose this new timeline is already screwed up. No sense keeping the future to himself.

Though one wonders, just how different can he make the galaxy? What kinds of things will/should he say? What kinds of technology does Spock know about that wouldn't otherwise be invented for decades/centuries? Imagine an Alpha Quadrant that is fully prepared for a Borg attack or that can lead a pre-emptive strike against the Dominion.

The possibilities are quite intriguing.
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Old August 29 2012, 01:48 AM   #33
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Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Fair enough. I suppose this new timeline is already screwed up. No sense keeping the future to himself.

Though one wonders, just how different can he make the galaxy? What kinds of things will/should he say? What kinds of technology does Spock know about that wouldn't otherwise be invented for decades/centuries? Imagine an Alpha Quadrant that is fully prepared for a Borg attack or that can lead a pre-emptive strike against the Dominion.

The possibilities are quite intriguing.
Not just technology, but simple knowledge. For instance Spock knows where the Bajoran wormhole is, if not that, then he knows there is a wormhole in the Bajoran system, and a determined search will find it, that will give the 23rd century access to the Gamma Quadrant 100 years early. We know that the Bajoran system is within reach of the 23rd century Federation because in the movie Uhura orders a Cardassian drink at a bar in Iowa.
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Old August 29 2012, 01:51 AM   #34
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Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
RoJoHen wrote: View Post
I'm trying to figure out if Old Spock would actually divulge this information to save the Romulans or if he would keep it to himself so as not to further pollute the timeline.
Theres no polluting the timeline problem. Spock is in a different reality, not the one he's seen the future of. He doesnt know the future. There's no way for him to pollute the timeline. And not to attempt to warn the Romulans would be morally untenable.

Spock can use his knowledge of various things that are likely to occur or exist, such as the Bajoran wormhole or the likely location of the Doomsday Machine in this time perios, to help the Feds stave off disasters.

There's no guarantee that either of those things still exist, of course. Spock can't really know just how much this timeline differs from his own, or whether his and Nero's incursions were the only diverenge. maybe there have been billions of divergences. it's a big universe and the changes would not necesarily be obvious but rather very diffuse.

And thats not even addressing the hilarity of a supernova that sneaks up on everyone rather than being a predictable part of a star's lifecycle, or even more hilairous, a supernova capable of endangering an entire galaxy.
If a supernova can do that, there would be no life in this galaxy, because many supernovas would have already exploded before there was anyone to stop them like Spock. If Spock was saving the entire galaxy by stopping this supernova, then I'm afraid there is something wrong with this logic.
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Old August 29 2012, 01:57 AM   #35
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Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

Romulus Prime wrote:
All these responses, and still the point I made about the aspect of differences in that reality remains.
Not really, if each supposed example was debunked. It's not a good sign when your list of things that were supposedly already different starts off with the age of a character born after Nero's appearance and an appeal to ignorance.
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Old August 29 2012, 02:42 AM   #36
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Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

Timo wrote: View Post
But his odds of surviving revenge are right about zero. Fine, go kill Vulcan first and then save Romulus. But trying to take down Earth, too, when your only advantage is that Starfleet was slow to react to the first deed... Nero might as well not be interested in saving Romulus at all.

Which is a valid interpretation of the movie, certainly. But it would also be consistent to assume he killed the threatening star before launching on his mission of destruction.
According to the majority of the movie his odds of surviving revenge are made to seem almost 100%. It is only with four years of hindsight (and a need to "explain" the Enterprise's victory) that anything approaching an alternative way of looking at things can even be contemplated. It may not seem to make much sense as presented (a problem with the film in general of course), but it is made very clear that had Nero destroyed the Enterprise at Vulcan when he should and could have, he would have easily also destroyed the Earth. Anyway, the important point is that Nero clearly thought he could destroy the Federation so he believed he had the time and abiltiy to figure out how best to save Romulus (even though one line in the movie might suggest he already had).

The same is true of Vulcan becoming a black hole. Yet apparently red matter has this property of creating a hole with more pull than one would assume from the available mass alone. Which isn't such a surprise, really, if these holes reach across time itself and allow the holes to pull in matter from other realms!
We have every reason to be surprised since this aspect isn’t even mentioned but must be inferred! Indeed from what I recall there is no mention of these "red-holes" being able to "… pull in matter from other realms!", whatever a "realm" is (Or did I miss something)? The red matter black hole is pure fantasy and can do whatever the plot requires irrespective of rational foundation. Only by realising that can we avoid being surprised.
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Old August 29 2012, 03:21 AM   #37
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Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Romulus Prime wrote:
All these responses, and still the point I made about the aspect of differences in that reality remains.
Not really, if each supposed example was debunked. It's not a good sign when your list of things that were supposedly already different starts off with the age of a character born after Nero's appearance and an appeal to ignorance.
They weren't, and if you're referring to Chekov, I'm basically banking on his parents age prior to Nero being different as well since his ends up different than in TOS. Despite what others may claim, Parallels allows for the possibility that the NuTrek universe is different on many levels. It certainly is now since Nero ended up there. But if you feel all that is "appealing to ignorance," then by all means, continue to think that...
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Old August 29 2012, 07:58 AM   #38
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Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

Mars wrote: View Post
Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
RoJoHen wrote: View Post
I'm trying to figure out if Old Spock would actually divulge this information to save the Romulans or if he would keep it to himself so as not to further pollute the timeline.
Theres no polluting the timeline problem. Spock is in a different reality, not the one he's seen the future of. He doesnt know the future. There's no way for him to pollute the timeline. And not to attempt to warn the Romulans would be morally untenable.

Spock can use his knowledge of various things that are likely to occur or exist, such as the Bajoran wormhole or the likely location of the Doomsday Machine in this time perios, to help the Feds stave off disasters.

There's no guarantee that either of those things still exist, of course. Spock can't really know just how much this timeline differs from his own, or whether his and Nero's incursions were the only diverenge. maybe there have been billions of divergences. it's a big universe and the changes would not necesarily be obvious but rather very diffuse.

And thats not even addressing the hilarity of a supernova that sneaks up on everyone rather than being a predictable part of a star's lifecycle, or even more hilairous, a supernova capable of endangering an entire galaxy.
If a supernova can do that, there would be no life in this galaxy, because many supernovas would have already exploded before there was anyone to stop them like Spock. If Spock was saving the entire galaxy by stopping this supernova, then I'm afraid there is something wrong with this logic.
That would be true if the physics of the Trek universe worked like ours does. However, it doesn't (Scalosian water, Warp Drive, One Little Ship, etc, etc.)

Spock-Prime, as close to a trusted source as we have in that universe said "129 years from now, a star will explode and threaten to destroy the galaxy." He didn'r say part of the galaxy or half the galaxy or this section of the galaxy. Since his primary role in the movie was to bring Nu-Kirk (and us) up to speed we pretty much have to take what he said at face value. He did also tell a lie to Kirk

"Under no circumstances...can he be made aware of my existence, you must promise me this.

You're telling me I can't tell you...that I'm following you're own orders, why not? What happens?

Jim, this is one rule you cannot break."

Of course, we later got this

"How'd you persuade him to keep your secret?

He inferred that, universe ending paradoxes would ensue should he break his promise.

You lied?

- Oh. I... I implied."

So Spock is capable of lying in this situation but un order to stop Nero we must assume that he told Nu-Kirk the truth.

In a nutshell, the star exploded, pPock didn't stop it in time (whatever that entailed) and it's likely that a large chunk of at least the area around Hobus was indeed destroyed. For all we know most of the Romulan colonies were taken out as well. Trek does tend to equate a home planet with the entire empire/Federation/etc.
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Old August 29 2012, 08:18 AM   #39
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Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

According to the majority of the movie his odds of surviving revenge are made to seem almost 100%.
Well, his revenge supposedly consists of destroying planet after planet. He got one, he didn't get another. And the movie provided no mechanism for how he could have gotten more than Vulcan, and plenty of mechanisms for how he could have been defeated (starting with hand-held rifles!). It's like trying to win WWII by bombing Berlin night after night, only not with 5% odds of getting shot down, but with 50% ones. So that already defeats the idea of organizing your calendar on the idea of finishing revenge first...

...Unless you don't care one iota about whether you save Romulus or not. Which is possible - but no more or less possible than Nero neutralizing the supernova start first.

We have every reason to be surprised since this aspect isn’t even mentioned but must be inferred!
...From every instance the red matter is used! It never produces what could be described as a black hole with the mass of what had been there before red matter was applied. But it does produce strange long-distance pull in the end, with lots of red matter but little mass involved, and no observable pull in the teaser, with but a drop of red matter and supposedly the mass of the supernova involved. So we could consistently argue that the pull comes from the red matter.

...This would mean no pull from the destruction of Vulcan. Of course, our heroes feared there would be pull - but the fear might well have been baseless.

if you're referring to Chekov, I'm basically banking on his parents age prior to Nero being different as well since his ends up different than in TOS.
Can't see the logic there. How would the age of the parents be relevant to when they spawn Chekov? At the very least, there'd be a range of thirty years from start to end of the mother's fertility, discounting 23rd century medical advances.

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Old August 29 2012, 08:35 AM   #40
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Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

It would appear that there was another, different Chekov at the academy. This one's parents probably are different people. Orci has said that the universe was trying to heal itself. It apparently didn't want the younger Chekov, the one who had the same parents as in the prime universe, so it picked a different one. This one may even have a brother named Pioter.
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Old August 29 2012, 08:36 AM   #41
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Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

UFO wrote: View Post
CommanderRaytas wrote: View Post
Star Trek: That Confusing Moment When Nobody Knows if Stuff Will Happen or Not in a Possible Future or Alternate Reality

Sounds promising.
I'm afraid I'm none the wiser as to the nature of your concern.
Sorry, mate, I thought you were joking!

I mean that there is no reason for anyone to address possible futures in different realities. What would be the point? It would only confuse people. With a new reality, everything is possible. Making announcements about what's going to happen in the future of a different dimension is...well, useless.
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Old August 29 2012, 09:32 AM   #42
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Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

RPJOB wrote: View Post
It would appear that there was another, different Chekov at the academy. This one's parents probably are different people. Orci has said that the universe was trying to heal itself. It apparently didn't want the younger Chekov, the one who had the same parents as in the prime universe, so it picked a different one. This one may even have a brother named Pioter.
Zefram Cochrane was supposedly in this thirties when he invented warp drive. First Contact changed that and put him in his 50's. Films and TV change character ages all the time. McCoy was originally supposed to be much older than Kirk, yet somewhere along the way he became Kirk's contemporary.

Unlike how Star Trek portrays it 99.99% of the time (the only counter-examples I can think of being that superfast planet in VOY: "The Blink of an Eye" and the sublight journey of the crippled Columbia NX-02 in the Destiny novels), time isn't constant throughout the galaxy. That's why Stardates were supposedly invented in the first place. So Chekov gaining a few years somewhere that Chekov-Prime didn't isn't really a big deal I don't think.
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Old August 29 2012, 11:07 AM   #43
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Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

Well, dramatically, it sort of is. In the movie, Chekov is a genius of sorts at 17; in TOS, he was an inexperienced young man at 22. We don't get the impression that he would have a whiz kid past in TOS, that he would have entered Starfleet at a particularly young age; if anything, he appears to have started his career only very recently.

On the other hand, Uhura is a completely different character here, too, an aurally skilled linguist rather than an electrician. And incidentally she, too, is young enough to be a different character by the rules of the timeline branching... But it's not her (unestablished) age that makes her different in this case.

In comparison, McCoy and Spock are their old selves, and Scotty has yet to demonstrate a distinguishing characteristic, and they were all born before Nero messed up things.

Films and TV change character ages all the time.
Yet remarkably, this is the first time somebody's birthdate has been changed in Star Trek.

In all previous cases, it has only been the character's appearance changing to subtly or grossly indicate that an earlier noncanonical guess at his age had been wrong. And even in the most obvious cases, the ones where they do the usual trick with quickly maturing children, it's with partially alien kids, Alexander and Naomi, who sort of have an excuse. Molly O'Brien grows up more or less normally, even if there sometimes is confusion as to whether her age is counted in Earth or Bajoran years.

It's only Chekov who goes from being explicitly 22 in "Who Mourns for Adonais" to being explicitly 17 in STXI, even though the latter explicitly takes place in 2258 and the former can take place in 2266 at the very earliest.

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Old August 29 2012, 01:07 PM   #44
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Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

RPJOB wrote: View Post
Mars wrote: View Post
Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post

Theres no polluting the timeline problem. Spock is in a different reality, not the one he's seen the future of. He doesnt know the future. There's no way for him to pollute the timeline. And not to attempt to warn the Romulans would be morally untenable.

Spock can use his knowledge of various things that are likely to occur or exist, such as the Bajoran wormhole or the likely location of the Doomsday Machine in this time perios, to help the Feds stave off disasters.

There's no guarantee that either of those things still exist, of course. Spock can't really know just how much this timeline differs from his own, or whether his and Nero's incursions were the only diverenge. maybe there have been billions of divergences. it's a big universe and the changes would not necesarily be obvious but rather very diffuse.

And thats not even addressing the hilarity of a supernova that sneaks up on everyone rather than being a predictable part of a star's lifecycle, or even more hilairous, a supernova capable of endangering an entire galaxy.
If a supernova can do that, there would be no life in this galaxy, because many supernovas would have already exploded before there was anyone to stop them like Spock. If Spock was saving the entire galaxy by stopping this supernova, then I'm afraid there is something wrong with this logic.
That would be true if the physics of the Trek universe worked like ours does. However, it doesn't (Scalosian water, Warp Drive, One Little Ship, etc, etc.)
There were stars before there were people, you know that.
The Milky Way Galaxy has many stars that can go supernova, and on average one star in the Milky Way Galaxy goes supernova every 100 years, if every time it did so the Galaxy got destroyed, there would be no galaxy. Saying a supernova can destroy a galaxy is hyperbole.

RPJOB wrote: View Post
Spock-Prime, as close to a trusted source as we have in that universe said "129 years from now, a star will explode and threaten to destroy the galaxy." He didn'r say part of the galaxy or half the galaxy or this section of the galaxy. Since his primary role in the movie was to bring Nu-Kirk (and us) up to speed we pretty much have to take what he said at face value. He did also tell a lie to Kirk

"Under no circumstances...can he be made aware of my existence, you must promise me this.

You're telling me I can't tell you...that I'm following you're own orders, why not? What happens?

Jim, this is one rule you cannot break."

Of course, we later got this

"How'd you persuade him to keep your secret?

He inferred that, universe ending paradoxes would ensue should he break his promise.

You lied?

- Oh. I... I implied."

So Spock is capable of lying in this situation but un order to stop Nero we must assume that he told Nu-Kirk the truth.

In a nutshell, the star exploded, pPock didn't stop it in time (whatever that entailed) and it's likely that a large chunk of at least the area around Hobus was indeed destroyed. For all we know most of the Romulan colonies were taken out as well. Trek does tend to equate a home planet with the entire empire/Federation/etc.
A black hole will not stop a supernova explosion that's already in progress, the only chance of stopping a supernova explosion is to swallow it with a black hole before it explodes, otherwise, the black hole can swallow some of the matter and energy expanding outward but not make like the supernova never occurred. If the writers wanted to create a scenario where Romulus gets destroyed and Nero blames spock for not saving Romulus, they should have done some more research on astronomy, the one above is just ridiculous. I think if one is going to write a space opera, a little research on astronomy is a good idea. Have all sorts of science fiction gizmos, but at least the stars should behave normally according to astronomical textbooks.
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Old August 29 2012, 01:28 PM   #45
Timo
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Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

If we disregard the "threatened galaxy" aspect here as politically motivated hyperbole, the rest could well hold together. Since red matter can create black holes in the middle of empty space if need be, Spock could have intended to use one as a shield between Romulus and its exploding star, rather than as a weapon against the star itself. That is, anything coming the way of Romulus would have been sucked out of the universe before it reached the planet. There'd probably be several days to evacuate, then.

In that case, we'd have to go the "red matter will blow up Spock unless he ejects it" route to explain the lack of time. Any locations outside the Romulan system would have plenty of time, though, and Spock could always deploy more red matter to absorb the wavefront at select spots when needed.

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