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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old August 27 2012, 08:10 AM   #16
Timo
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Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

I don't believe Nero had the red matter until he captured Spock, and he only got Spock recently before he imploded Vulcan into a black hole, if he imploded a star, that would have attracted the attention of Star Fleet and would have ruined his surprise when he attacked Vulcan.
Actually, we have the timeline of these things down pat, thanks to meticulous Starfleet bookkeeping! Kirk and Chekov give us the exact hours at which various things took place.

Chekov's PA: "At twenty-two hundred hours, telemetry detected at an anomaly in the neutral zone. What appeared to be a lightning storm in space." (That's Spock arriving.)

Kirk's attempt to convince Pike: "at twenty-three hundred hours last night, there was an attack. Forty-seven Klingon warbirds destroyed by a Romulan, Sir." (That's Nero having had red matter for one hour. Also note "last night", meaning Vulcan is dying some time after San Francisco dawn, just as the shuttle scenes suggested, but before the next San Francisco dawn.)

And no, imploding stars generally do not attract the attention of Starfleet. Strangely but consistently enough, a starship has to visit a star system to see even the most massive changes in real time, as in "Doomsday Machine" or ST2. It would take some years for the lightspeed evidence of the disappearance of a star in Romulan or Klingon border regions to reach the Federation. And apparently even the faster-than-light telescopes of the UFP aren't constantly looking out for things like this with military alertness; any warning would have to diffuse down to Starfleet through cohort upon cohort of lab-coat nerds, easily giving Nero the less than full day he needed to act.

Of course, Starfleet might have found out about the star - and immediately slapped "Top Secret" on the knowledge, like they did on the information about the loss of Klingon warships. It's quite unlikely they could see a connection between the astronomical phenomenon and an impending attack on Vulcan. An incorrect reaction would be more likely than a correct one in any case. Something did prompt them to send their warships to Laurentius...

This star would have had to have been fairly close to Romulus to destroy the planet when it exploded
Indeed, the only realistic alternative here is that it was the very star Romulus orbited. Otherwise, Spock should have had enough lead time to intercept the wave of destruction as it moved between star systems. Even if it was a FTL wave, Spock was supposedly in a fast FTL ship...

But I guess we could make do with a star exploding in the next system over. We know Klingons and Romulans constantly contest the ownership of border systems (such as Khitomer), and Romulus itself appears to lie very close to the border, judging by travel times in several episodes. A neighboring system thus could well be infested with Klingons like specified in the Kelvin walla for 2233, or in the message from 2258...

Timo Saloniemi
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Old August 27 2012, 09:01 AM   #17
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Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
I for one welcome our future Romulan overlords.


Seriously, though...

Well, the entire point of bringing about an alternate timeline was to create an "everything is possible" scenario. Spock would never make a statement like the one suggested in the original post, as it would only cause a lot of unnecessary confusion in this case.
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Old August 27 2012, 11:02 AM   #18
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Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

CommanderRaytas wrote: View Post
Well, the entire point of bringing about an alternate timeline was to create an "everything is possible" scenario. Spock would never make a statement like the one suggested in the original post, as it would only cause a lot of unnecessary confusion in this case.
You mean because that is not what the next movie will be about? Pity.
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Old August 27 2012, 11:07 AM   #19
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Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

Romulus Prime wrote: View Post
KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Romulus Prime wrote: View Post
Who says Romulus will be destroyed in this reality? It was already a bit different to begin with,
Only in as much as giving Trek a much needed visual upgrade. In-universe, it's the same.
Chekov is older, no George Kirk Jr. that we know of, Pike is older, technology seems a little more advanced and similar to what it would be in the late 23rd century, more aliens are in Starfleet at this time - just 5 things I can think of off the top of my head that prove the NuTrek universe has some distinct differences.

That's at least 5 differences before Spock and Nero show up, and there's no way to conclusively say there aren't any more on either a minor or major level. Fortunately, Parallels implies either is possible.

It's also got a bigger budget and a top drawer producer.
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Old August 27 2012, 01:03 PM   #20
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Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

UFO wrote: View Post
CommanderRaytas wrote: View Post
Well, the entire point of bringing about an alternate timeline was to create an "everything is possible" scenario. Spock would never make a statement like the one suggested in the original post, as it would only cause a lot of unnecessary confusion in this case.
You mean because that is not what the next movie will be about? Pity.
Star Trek: That Confusing Moment When Nobody Knows if Stuff Will Happen or Not in a Possible Future or Alternate Reality

Sounds promising.
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Old August 27 2012, 05:59 PM   #21
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Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

Transwarp Drive wrote: View Post
Romulus Prime wrote: View Post
KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Only in as much as giving Trek a much needed visual upgrade. In-universe, it's the same.
Chekov is older, no George Kirk Jr. that we know of, Pike is older, technology seems a little more advanced and similar to what it would be in the late 23rd century, more aliens are in Starfleet at this time - just 5 things I can think of off the top of my head that prove the NuTrek universe has some distinct differences.

That's at least 5 differences before Spock and Nero show up, and there's no way to conclusively say there aren't any more on either a minor or major level. Fortunately, Parallels implies either is possible.

It's also got a bigger budget and a top drawer producer.
It's also an alternate reality with certain changes/differences to it on a minor level. In other alternate realities, there are changes/differences which are on a major scale as well. The possibility of the NuTrek universe having both minor AND major changes/differences which alter (or even accelerate) events in their future is my point.

Budget
Writers
Producer
Film technology -

- wait, are we talking about WTF may or may not happen in the future of an alternate fake universe, or are we talking about real life? I was under the impression we were talking about events which may or may not happen in a possible future in a movie, NOT why things happened in the movie due to real life.

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Old August 28 2012, 05:08 AM   #22
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Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

CommanderRaytas wrote: View Post
Star Trek: That Confusing Moment When Nobody Knows if Stuff Will Happen or Not in a Possible Future or Alternate Reality

Sounds promising.
I'm afraid I'm none the wiser as to the nature of your concern.
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Old August 28 2012, 12:31 PM   #23
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Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

Timo wrote: View Post
I don't believe Nero had the red matter until he captured Spock, and he only got Spock recently before he imploded Vulcan into a black hole, if he imploded a star, that would have attracted the attention of Star Fleet and would have ruined his surprise when he attacked Vulcan.
Actually, we have the timeline of these things down pat, thanks to meticulous Starfleet bookkeeping! Kirk and Chekov give us the exact hours at which various things took place.

Chekov's PA: "At twenty-two hundred hours, telemetry detected at an anomaly in the neutral zone. What appeared to be a lightning storm in space." (That's Spock arriving.)

Kirk's attempt to convince Pike: "at twenty-three hundred hours last night, there was an attack. Forty-seven Klingon warbirds destroyed by a Romulan, Sir." (That's Nero having had red matter for one hour. Also note "last night", meaning Vulcan is dying some time after San Francisco dawn, just as the shuttle scenes suggested, but before the next San Francisco dawn.)

And no, imploding stars generally do not attract the attention of Starfleet. Strangely but consistently enough, a starship has to visit a star system to see even the most massive changes in real time, as in "Doomsday Machine" or ST2. It would take some years for the lightspeed evidence of the disappearance of a star in Romulan or Klingon border regions to reach the Federation. And apparently even the faster-than-light telescopes of the UFP aren't constantly looking out for things like this with military alertness; any warning would have to diffuse down to Starfleet through cohort upon cohort of lab-coat nerds, easily giving Nero the less than full day he needed to act.

Of course, Starfleet might have found out about the star - and immediately slapped "Top Secret" on the knowledge, like they did on the information about the loss of Klingon warships. It's quite unlikely they could see a connection between the astronomical phenomenon and an impending attack on Vulcan. An incorrect reaction would be more likely than a correct one in any case. Something did prompt them to send their warships to Laurentius...

This star would have had to have been fairly close to Romulus to destroy the planet when it exploded
Indeed, the only realistic alternative here is that it was the very star Romulus orbited. Otherwise, Spock should have had enough lead time to intercept the wave of destruction as it moved between star systems. Even if it was a FTL wave, Spock was supposedly in a fast FTL ship...

But I guess we could make do with a star exploding in the next system over. We know Klingons and Romulans constantly contest the ownership of border systems (such as Khitomer), and Romulus itself appears to lie very close to the border, judging by travel times in several episodes. A neighboring system thus could well be infested with Klingons like specified in the Kelvin walla for 2233, or in the message from 2258...

Timo Saloniemi
If it was the star Romulus orbited, then the Romulans would have a problem if Nero imploded it, instead of getting 130 more years of light from it and then getting their planet destroyed they would have to evacuate their planet immediately before it freezes! I think even if the light would take some time to deliver the news that a star imploded in Romulan space, news would travel at the speed of subspace radio, not that of light, as the Romulans would talk and spread the news themselves. Too many people would be witnesses for this event for it to be stamped top secret, and what good is top secret if it is not shared with the military so they could do something about it? The first thing about Nero they'd learn is there is somebody out there imploding stars. I don't think Nero would do this either, he wouldn't take the chance, he wants his revenge first and then save Romulus second, he never got to do this second part and the last of the red matter went into imploding his own ship into a black hole.

Though honestly if the Nerada was a black hole, it would make a very tiny one, about the size of an atom, and its gravitational field would not increase and threaten to suck the Enterprise in, and it would get no where near the event horizon before being torn apart by tidal forces if it strayed too close. Again apparently warp drives lose their effectiveness in intense gravitational fields, as a starship that could exceed the speed of light should easily be able to escape a black hole.
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Old August 28 2012, 02:25 PM   #24
Timo
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Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

If it was the star Romulus orbited, then the Romulans would have a problem if Nero imploded it, instead of getting 130 more years of light from it and then getting their planet destroyed they would have to evacuate their planet immediately before it freezes!
Umm, good point.

Yet Spock doing the same to an already exploding star might not be such a bad idea. There'd be days to evacuate a freezing planet, only seconds to evacuate one being consumed and disintegrated by a fiery blast.

But I definitely prefer the idea of this being a neighboring star to it being the immediate "homestar". Perhaps it's Romii blowing up?

news would travel at the speed of subspace radio, not that of light, as the Romulans would talk and spread the news themselves.
And we know how fast such news do travel, and what overall effect they have: shutting down the naughty star would take place more or less simultaneously with the massacre of the Klingon fleet (and might even be the very same act!), and Starfleet didn't exactly go public with that piece of intel.

The first thing about Nero they'd learn is there is somebody out there imploding stars.
How could they learn this? A star implodes - the next assumption is not that somebody imploded it! These people don't even seem to know about red matter yet, after all; making of black holes is magic to them.

he wants his revenge first and then save Romulus second
But his odds of surviving revenge are right about zero. Fine, go kill Vulcan first and then save Romulus. But trying to take down Earth, too, when your only advantage is that Starfleet was slow to react to the first deed... Nero might as well not be interested in saving Romulus at all.

Which is a valid interpretation of the movie, certainly. But it would also be consistent to assume he killed the threatening star before launching on his mission of destruction.

the Nerada was a black hole, it would make a very tiny one, about the size of an atom, and its gravitational field would not increase and threaten to suck the Enterprise in,
The same is true of Vulcan becoming a black hole. Yet apparently red matter has this property of creating a hole with more pull than one would assume from the available mass alone. Which isn't such a surprise, really, if these holes reach across time itself and allow the holes to pull in matter from other realms!

Again apparently warp drives lose their effectiveness in intense gravitational fields, as a starship that could exceed the speed of light should easily be able to escape a black hole.
On the other hand, we saw Voyager fly out of a black hole (albeit one with an exotic "shell" around it) in "Parallax" like any good FTL-capable starship should. But again we have consistency here: gravitic pull allows for warp but makes it slow, and a lot of gravitic pull defeats warp altogether, but in a manner completely different from how a sublight spacecraft would be overcome by a black hole.

There's a lot of unintentional consistency in this movie, especially if one starts piling it up on a rather harmless basic assumption (Nero saved Romulus) that itself happens to go against the most basic intentions of the writers.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old August 28 2012, 03:28 PM   #25
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Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

Spock said the supernova "threatened to destroy the galaxy." It was way bigger than Romulus and Remus, they were just the first major worlds to be obliterated. Remember that even after the destruction of the Romulan core worlds, Spock told Kirk "I had little time" - which makes no sense if the Romulan system was the extent of the destruction.

Here's what Memory Beta has to say, mostly from the novel The Needs of the Many, set in the early 25th century: http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Hobus

The Hobus star is located in the Beta Quadrant's Devron sector, 500 light-years from Romulus, in the outermost reaches of the Romulan Star Empire . It is one of the oldest stars in the galaxy.

In 2387, the Hobus star exploded in a supernova which
threatened the galaxy. The first indications of the disaster were observed on Stardate 64333.4 by the crew of the Romulan Mining Guild ship Narada, who were mining the first planet in the Hobus system for the rare mineral decalithium . Wild fluctuations in Hobus’ radiation output forced the Narada to abandon a mining operation and evacuate the area at warp. The star erupted, destroying the planet. Ambassador Spock warned the Romulan senate that the imminent supernova would be “unlike any the galaxy has ever seen” and that the star had converted the planet’s mass into energy, increasing its own power.
(Countdown ) 27 hours after stardate 64444.5, the Hobus star exploded, the effects propagating through subspace at multiwarp speeds, destroying the planets Romulus and Remus . On Stardate 64471.6 ( STO website : The Path to 2409 ), Ambassador Spock, using a prototype ship (the Jellyfish ) equipped with red matter , created a black hole , absorbing the exploding star. ( TOS movie, novelization & comic adaptation: Star Trek; TNG comic : " Countdown") The supernova left behind the parsecs -deep, amber-hued Hobus Nebula. At the center of the nebula, the Hobus stellar remnant, known as the Hobus Cinder, is still active and can be seen pulsing through the nebula gasses
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Old August 28 2012, 04:11 PM   #26
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Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Spock said the supernova "threatened to destroy the galaxy." It was way bigger than Romulus and Remus, they were just the first major worlds to be obliterated. Remember that even after the destruction of the Romulan core worlds, Spock told Kirk "I had little time" - which makes no sense if the Romulan system was the extent of the destruction.

Here's what Memory Beta has to say, mostly from the novel The Needs of the Many, set in the early 25th century: http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Hobus

The Hobus star is located in the Beta Quadrant's Devron sector, 500 light-years from Romulus, in the outermost reaches of the Romulan Star Empire . It is one of the oldest stars in the galaxy.

In 2387, the Hobus star exploded in a supernova which
threatened the galaxy. The first indications of the disaster were observed on Stardate 64333.4 by the crew of the Romulan Mining Guild ship Narada, who were mining the first planet in the Hobus system for the rare mineral decalithium . Wild fluctuations in Hobus’ radiation output forced the Narada to abandon a mining operation and evacuate the area at warp. The star erupted, destroying the planet. Ambassador Spock warned the Romulan senate that the imminent supernova would be “unlike any the galaxy has ever seen” and that the star had converted the planet’s mass into energy, increasing its own power.
(Countdown ) 27 hours after stardate 64444.5, the Hobus star exploded, the effects propagating through subspace at multiwarp speeds, destroying the planets Romulus and Remus . On Stardate 64471.6 ( STO website : The Path to 2409 ), Ambassador Spock, using a prototype ship (the Jellyfish ) equipped with red matter , created a black hole , absorbing the exploding star. ( TOS movie, novelization & comic adaptation: Star Trek; TNG comic : " Countdown") The supernova left behind the parsecs -deep, amber-hued Hobus Nebula. At the center of the nebula, the Hobus stellar remnant, known as the Hobus Cinder, is still active and can be seen pulsing through the nebula gasses
I see they've taken a lot of liberties with supernova explosions here. Generally speaking a supernova leaves behind a pulsar in the center of an expanding wave of matter and radiation.
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Old August 28 2012, 04:25 PM   #27
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Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

Spock said the supernova "threatened to destroy the galaxy." It was way bigger than Romulus and Remus, they were just the first major worlds to be obliterated.
That would in no way invalidate the idea that Nero preemptively destroyed a star neighboring Romulus, while Spock belatedly destroyed the same star (although now more like a has-been) after it had already engulfed Romulus.

Remember that even after the destruction of the Romulan core worlds, Spock told Kirk "I had little time" - which makes no sense if the Romulan system was the extent of the destruction.
...Unless an already extracted droplet of red matter is unstable and will form a black hole anyway, in "little time". Better get it off the ship quickly, then - and preferably in a way that does some good.

Alternately, red matter could be insufficient after the wavefront had expanded past Romulus, quite regardless of how fast it was going and how far it would reach eventually.

The big question here is, how does creating a black hole near Romulus do any good against a supernova explosion that had originated either 1 AU away, or perhaps one star system away? This regardless of whether the supernova is of a semi-realistic sort, or utterly fantastic; the same questions of range apply in both cases, as we saw a like droplet create only an invisibly small hole (one that completely failed to suck in a nearby starship, even) when applied inside Vulcan.

The talk about all this threatening the galaxy can be dismissed as referring to the political repercussions. But only after we figure out what Spock was hoping to achieve in the first place. (Perhaps black holes were an unintended side effect of some other, more relevant anti-supernova function of the stuff?)

Timo Saloniemi
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Old August 28 2012, 04:45 PM   #28
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Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

Forgive my naitivity here, but if the sun of Romulus is dying, wouldn't it be noticed well before the need for a solution thought up by Spock was even conceived?
We're talking about around 140 years then? My understanding of imploding stars is small, but there would have to have been signs that this end was nearing.

I can see the Romulans expanding out to colonize other worlds well before the end of their home world and it implodes.
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Old August 28 2012, 07:36 PM   #29
Timo
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Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

Since nobody seemed to believe Spock on Romulus, we are to assume that this particular star exploded in an exotic manner that orthodox science didn't believe in. Happens all the time in disaster movies... Nobody listens to the eccentric genius.

The fact that nobody agreed with Spock even on Vulcan may have been due to Vulcans being cool with Romulus blowing up; certainly Nero seems to think this was the case and Spock was but a Vulcan in the end.

imploding stars
Well, implosion is a good way to describe a real-world supernova, but in this discussion the word has been chiefly used to describe the sucking effect of red matter. We don't actually know if the supernova (which was described purely as an explosion in the movie) involved the conventional sort of stagewise-loss-of-fusion-and-resulting-compression-until-next-type-of-fusion-kicks-in or not.

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Old August 28 2012, 08:00 PM   #30
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Re: The Great Romulan Evacuation

Timo wrote: View Post
Spock said the supernova "threatened to destroy the galaxy." It was way bigger than Romulus and Remus, they were just the first major worlds to be obliterated.
That would in no way invalidate the idea that Nero preemptively destroyed a star neighboring Romulus, while Spock belatedly destroyed the same star (although now more like a has-been) after it had already engulfed Romulus.

Remember that even after the destruction of the Romulan core worlds, Spock told Kirk "I had little time" - which makes no sense if the Romulan system was the extent of the destruction.
...Unless an already extracted droplet of red matter is unstable and will form a black hole anyway, in "little time". Better get it off the ship quickly, then - and preferably in a way that does some good.

Alternately, red matter could be insufficient after the wavefront had expanded past Romulus, quite regardless of how fast it was going and how far it would reach eventually.

The big question here is, how does creating a black hole near Romulus do any good against a supernova explosion that had originated either 1 AU away, or perhaps one star system away? This regardless of whether the supernova is of a semi-realistic sort, or utterly fantastic; the same questions of range apply in both cases, as we saw a like droplet create only an invisibly small hole (one that completely failed to suck in a nearby starship, even) when applied inside Vulcan.

The talk about all this threatening the galaxy can be dismissed as referring to the political repercussions. But only after we figure out what Spock was hoping to achieve in the first place. (Perhaps black holes were an unintended side effect of some other, more relevant anti-supernova function of the stuff?)

Timo Saloniemi
Blame the screenwriters on this one, they said it threatens to destroy the Galaxy because it sounds cool, and let the science guys try to explain it all later. An exploding galaxy is also known as a quasar, quasars are usually the exploding cores of galaxies because too much matter is falling into the central black hole at once and it can't all fit, so we have all that matter grinding against matter as it is pulled into the black hole, that means a significant portion of that matter is converted into energy even before reaching the event horizon, typically 50% of it escapes in another direction besides the black hole, that is the science of it anyway, usually even that doesn't destroy a galaxy.
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