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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old August 25 2012, 08:18 AM   #16
RoJoHen
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

Tiberius wrote: View Post
RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post

Good point. Perhaps it was more that they wanted to connect Picard to Sisko in some way?
Perhaps. I just find it funny now in hindsight. I know that the Defiant was originally built to fight the Borg. Was DS9 planning to have the Borg pop up from time to time, and if so, what made them scrap that idea?
No, the Defiant came to help with the threat from the Dominion. They probably figures that a starship tough enough to fit the Borg would be good to have in case the Dominion attacked. And they were right...
Yes, I realize that the Defiant was there to fight the Dominion. I'm asking, from a writer's standpoint, why mention the Borg at all? You could have just easily called it a new battleship without saying anything about the Borg, unless there were in fact plans to have the Defiant one day fight the Borg on the show (and yes, I realize that she does eventually fight the Borg in First Contact).
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Old August 25 2012, 08:38 AM   #17
Tiberius
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

But given the Federation's (until that point) anti-warship policy, there would need to be some justification for it.

And there were plans for the Defiant to fight the Borg. Maybe not from the writers, but certainly from an in-universe perspective.
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Old August 25 2012, 09:26 AM   #18
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

Right, but I'm specifically asking about the writer's perspective.
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Old August 25 2012, 09:58 AM   #19
dodge
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

^^
What Tiberius already said.
Not sure what confuses you about it.

Having them design, build, test and deploy a new type of ship all within three months after the encounter with the Dominion would have been pushing it. So they needed to establish why Starfleet already had a warship, hence... Borg mention.
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Old August 25 2012, 12:17 PM   #20
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
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The idea that Sisko couldn't see beyond his prejudice undermines his ability to be a competent leader. He obviously couldn't be seen to be incompetent from the first episode so it was written that way for another reason.
Well, here's what the Wikipedia guide to the episode says:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emissar...eep_Space_Nine)

Sisko is resentful of the duty, having lost his wife Jennifer three years previously during the Borg attack at Wolf 359 and destruction of his former ship...Sisko becomes more despondent of the position as he gets his final orders from Captain Picard, the man Sisko holds responsible for Jennifer's death...

the entities point out that he continues to return to the moment of Jennifer's death. Sisko comes to the realization that he has been grieving over the loss of his wife and explains this to the aliens.

When the Enterprise arrives in response to Kira's earlier call for help, Sisko informs Picard that the wormhole aliens have helped him to overcome his grief about Jennifer's death and to move on, and that he plans to remain station commander indefinitely.
From memory alpha:

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Emissary_%28episode%29

The conversation [between Sisko and Picard] is dominated by thinly-veiled hostility on Sisko's part, as he faces the man he holds responsible for the death of his wife.

Sisko confesses he's never been able to get over losing her and that inside he does still exist here. But finally Sisko realizes that Jennifer is really gone and he has to let her go forever. He leaves the quarters again, but this time he walks away finally leaving the trauma of his wife's death behind him.
So I'm really not sure what you're taking issue with. But maybe you could, you know, say what you think the reason is instead of just saying what it isn't.
I always thought the purpose of these discussions was to put forward new ideas, not quote other people's as some kind of unbeatable trump card.
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Old August 25 2012, 12:49 PM   #21
Captaindemotion
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

^Well, given that you haven't put forward any ideas, that's a bit rich.

And I'm not putting forward other ideas, I'm listing a synopsis of the plot and the dialogue to support my own interepretation of the purpose. You know, supporting evidence?

But I see now that there's no point in attempting any sort of civil debate with you. You just keep saying 'You're wrong' in so many words.
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Old August 25 2012, 12:58 PM   #22
dodge
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

Deckerd wrote: View Post
Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
So I'm really not sure what you're taking issue with. But maybe you could, you know, say what you think the reason is instead of just saying what it isn't.
I always thought the purpose of these discussions was to put forward new ideas, not quote other people's as some kind of unbeatable trump card.
?

Captaindemotion was literally asking you to put forward a new idea in the post you quoted.

And you're accusing him of stifling debate?
Seriously?
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Old August 25 2012, 01:30 PM   #23
R. Star
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
^Well, given that you haven't put forward any ideas, that's a bit rich.

And I'm not putting forward other ideas, I'm listing a synopsis of the plot and the dialogue to support my own interepretation of the purpose. You know, supporting evidence?

But I see now that there's no point in attempting any sort of civil debate with you. You just keep saying 'You're wrong' in so many words.
You're quoting two separate wiki's. Those pretty much are the opinions of various users who compiled said articles. Hardly irrefutable evidence given the amount of conjecture in the snippets you quoted.
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Old August 25 2012, 01:40 PM   #24
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

^I didn't say that they were irrefutable evidence. But they're evidence nonetheless of the plot and of the dialogue and of the character development Sisko undergoes during the episode. That's a lot more than Deckard has done - he just keeps popping up saying 'No, that's not it.' I'm still waiting to hear what he says the point is.

Edit - http://www.st-minutiae.com/academy/l...ure329/402.txt

Here are extracts from the actual script itself. First, the meeting with Picard:

SISKO
It's been a long time, Captain.

Picard looks at him curiously as they sit.

PICARD
Have we met before?

SISKO
Yessir. We met in battle. I was on
the Saratoga at Wolf 359.

Picard blinks, acknowledging that Sisko has said something
entirely inappropriate. He chooses to move on... but there
is a definite subtext that runs through the scene... Picard
is curt, remote... Sisko is Starfleet attentive but his eyes
are cold and angry...
And from near the end of the episodes, during his dealings with the Prophets.

SISKO

I've never left this ship...

JENNIFER ALIEN

You exist here.

SISKO

I... exist here.

The Tactical Officer leads Sisko #2 out... Sisko steps slowly
forward and moves to his dead wife taking the place of his
double... picks up her hand...

SISKO
(to the aliens)
I don't know if you can understand.
I see her like this every time I
close my eyes... in the darkness in
the blink of an eye, she's there...
like this...

JENNIFER ALIEN
None of your past experiences helped
prepare you for this consequence...

Sisko shakes his head, slowly...


DEEP SPACE: "Emissary" REV. FINAL 08/21/92 - ACT EIGHT 113.

244 CONTINUED:

SISKO
(softly)
And I've never figured out how to
live without her.

JENNIFER ALIEN
So you choose to exist here.

He nods, unable to speak... she moves closer...

JENNIFER ALIEN
It is not linear.

And of course it is so simple in its truth...

SISKO
No. It's not... linear.

Sisko gently places down the hand of his dead wife...
and as he accepts that this is really the end of their
life together, tears roll down his cheeks, and he
begins to truly grieve his loss.
But if someone saying 'No, that's wrong' without offering an alternative explanation is more convincing, well, there you have it.
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Last edited by Captaindemotion; August 25 2012 at 01:51 PM.
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Old August 25 2012, 02:15 PM   #25
dodge
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

R. Star wrote: View Post
You're quoting two separate wiki's. Those pretty much are the opinions of various users who compiled said articles.
Those opinions are an accurate analysis of what was written.

I'm all for people bringing their own views on the matter and discussing those ideas, but the interpretation in the wiki articles is clearly what was intended by the writers.
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Old August 25 2012, 04:27 PM   #26
Captaindemotion
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

^Thank you.

I have no difficulty with people taking a different interpretation from me - indeed, one of my favourite threads in the BBS is the ongoing 'A Song of Ice and Fire' one, because it's made me realise just how inadequate my own interpretation of the books was.

But I'm a little puzzled that I'm being asked for 'irrefutable evidence' to support my personal views (as if an interpretation can ever be irrefutable anyway), while others can simply tell me that I'm wrong, without ever saying what the correct interpretation is and that seems to be acceptable.
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Old August 25 2012, 06:22 PM   #27
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

I didn't ask you for irrefutable evidence. You were brandishing quotes and accusing me of saying nothing despite the fact I'd already posted quite a few times. By all means keep whining about it, though.
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Old August 25 2012, 06:29 PM   #28
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

^I didn't refer to you regarding the irrefutable evidence issue. And it's a shame you can't tell the difference between an observation and whining.
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Old August 26 2012, 03:00 PM   #29
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
I get the purpose of including Picard in the DS9 premiere as a way to pass the torch, but what exactly would you say was gained by the angst Sisko had towards Picard? For story purposes, why did Jennifer need to be killed by the Borg? Could she not simply have died another way that didn't require shoehorning Locutus and Wolf 359 into the story?

It was kind of neat in that episode, but in retrospect it seems very odd considering neither Picard nor the Borg ever make another appearance on the show.
My take on it was the tension was there to help set Picard and Sisko, and DS9 by extension, apart from Next Generation. DS9 was a going to be a darker show and its genesis was in one of the darkest times we had seen in Federation history. I liked that Sisko didn't like Picard at first, but by the end of the episode had come around. It was a lot of character growth for a pilot episode, perhaps more than we had seen with any other Trek captain in their pilots.

I also thought going back to Wolf 359 was a great move. BOBW was arguably TNG's finest outing and I don't think it hurt DS9 to bask in some of that glow. Plus the DS9 pilot finally gave us a taste of what the Battle of Wolf 359 had been like. And I think it showed how much Sisko had been forged in battle, with war playing such a major role on DS9 in later years, it was one of the best Trek historical moments to introduce us to his character, and it also tied him to Picard in an nontraditional way and made his hostility feel more legitimate than petty, if if perhaps unfair.

I do get your point about the Borg not showing back up on DS9. I would've loved a follow-up. Personally I thought Sisko could fit just as easily into First Contact as Picard did as the main character. And it would've been great to see Sisko take on the Borg at least one more time, early in the series before the Dominion became so prominent.
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Old August 26 2012, 06:10 PM   #30
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

^ My understanding, based on a recollection of a long-ago magazine article I read, is that they basically decided that the Borg were TNG's and VOY's thing and just felt that DS9 didn't need them or should leave them alone.
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