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Old August 27 2012, 01:28 AM   #31
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Re: Why was Sisko assigned to DS9?

[QUOTE=Use of Time;6865298][QUOTE=Spock/Uhura Fan;6864923]
Use of Time wrote: View Post


Oh, I forgot to factor in the "stars in alignment" thing. My bad.
Yes, your bad. Kai Opaka called him the Emissary for a reason, and he was looked up to by the Bajoran people as their Emissary for that reason. You did watch the series, I assume.

So a CAPT or Admiral would be too much because...you say so?
Ok fine, how about an Ambassador then? That would have made a fine addition to the main cast.
No, not because "I say so," but because it didn't make any sense, and that's probably why it didn't happen (from Starfleet's POV). Are we to believe that a "CAPT or Admiral" were required just because YOU say so?
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Old August 27 2012, 01:37 AM   #32
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Re: Why was Sisko assigned to DS9?

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Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
^You on the one hand use the 'stars in alignment' symbolism, then in the next suggest that Sisko/Christ is a bad metaphor? Don't you recall the Three Wise Men or Little Star of Bethlehem stories?
Yes, I do recall them. There are many things about Sisko's story that are like that of Christ, but it is not the same story. He didn't die to save anyone from their sins, he didn't recruit disciples and swear off everything else so he could go to and fro preaching the gospel, he wasn't born of a virgin who was impregnated by the Prophets... There are lots of things that are similar, but not the same.
I would have thought it clear that Squiggy simply meant that Sisko was Christ-like, as oppose to exactly like Christ. The most interesting of stories don't simply recreate real-life or pre-existing characters, but borrow aspects from their histories.
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Old August 27 2012, 01:40 AM   #33
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Re: Why was Sisko assigned to DS9?

[QUOTE=Spock/Uhura Fan;6865358][QUOTE=Use of Time;6865298]
Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post

Yes, your bad. Kai Opaka called him the Emissary for a reason, and he was looked up to by the Bajoran people as their Emissary for that reason. You did watch the series, I assume.

No, not because "I say so," but because it didn't make any sense, and that's probably why it didn't happen (from Starfleet's POV). Are we to believe that a "CAPT or Admiral" were required just because YOU say so?
No, it isn't my bad because Sisko was "assigned" (key word in the thread title) well before he ever met Opaka if you recall. He wasn't selected for DS9 because he was the Emissary. Yes, I did watch the series. Lay off the snark.

Look, the Federation is an organization of over 150 planets. Bringing one of those planets and their occupants into the Federation would probably be a pretty big deal wouldn't you think? I would think that it would be the group work of a dedicated Ambassador and a major Starfleet presence possibly led by an Admiral to show that Starfleet considers their admission an important issue. I don't think it's crazy to think that an Admiral might get that kind of assignment. Do you?

I'm not saying any of these things because "I say so" but at least I am trying to provide some rational explanations for my thoughts.

You provided this. "An Admiral? No." Not much to work with there is there.
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Old August 27 2012, 01:57 AM   #34
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Re: Why was Sisko assigned to DS9?

Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
^You on the one hand use the 'stars in alignment' symbolism, then in the next suggest that Sisko/Christ is a bad metaphor? Don't you recall the Three Wise Men or Little Star of Bethlehem stories?
Yes, I do recall them. There are many things about Sisko's story that are like that of Christ, but it is not the same story. He didn't die to save anyone from their sins, he didn't recruit disciples and swear off everything else so he could go to and fro preaching the gospel, he wasn't born of a virgin who was impregnated by the Prophets... There are lots of things that are similar, but not the same.
I would have thought it clear that Squiggy simply meant that Sisko was Christ-like, as oppose to exactly like Christ.
And that's why I told him it might be good to use a simile next time.

The most interesting of stories don't simply recreate real-life or pre-existing characters, but borrow aspects from their histories.
Agreed.



Use of Time wrote: View Post

No, it isn't my bad because Sisko was "assigned" (key word in the thread title) well before he ever met Opaka if you recall.
Yes, and the question of the thread was "why" was he assigned. That's where destiny comes in. Their Emissary was "sent" to them. The right circumstances just happened to come into play to allow that to happen. That's kind of how fate and destiny work.

Look, the Federation is an organization of over 150 planets. Bringing one of those planets and their race into the Federation would probably be a pretty big deal wouldn't you think?
Not if joining looked to be a no-brainer by the new planet in question, and not if the people of that planet had very little (if any) political clout. All they needed to do was to keep the Cardassians in line (that's what the security force was for) and present their offer of membership (a seasoned Commander could do this).

I would think that it would be the group work of a dedicated Ambassador and a major Starfleet presence possibly led by an Admiral to show that Starfleet considers their admission an important issue. I don't think it's crazy to think that an Admiral might get that kind of assignment. Do you?

I'm not saying any of these things because "I say so" but at least I am trying to provide some rational explanations for my thoughts.
And unfortunately, beggars can't be choosy. I don't think that the Federation thought of the Bajorans as beggars, but aside from some natural resources that could be traded (and membership wasn't needed for trade), there's nothing that they were in a real position to bring to the table. Offering them membership was also offering them help and protection. That doesn't seem rational to you? If it doesn't, then what great benefit do you think the Bajorans could offer the Federation BEFORE the wormhole opened up?


You provide this. "An Admiral? No." Not much to work with there is there.
You seem to be choosing not to read any of my other posts. That's okay; see above please.
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Old August 27 2012, 02:09 AM   #35
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Re: Why was Sisko assigned to DS9?

Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post

Yes, I do recall them. There are many things about Sisko's story that are like that of Christ, but it is not the same story. He didn't die to save anyone from their sins, he didn't recruit disciples and swear off everything else so he could go to and fro preaching the gospel, he wasn't born of a virgin who was impregnated by the Prophets... There are lots of things that are similar, but not the same.
I would have thought it clear that Squiggy simply meant that Sisko was Christ-like, as oppose to exactly like Christ.
And that's why I told him it might be good to use a simile next time.

Agreed.





Yes, and the question of the thread was "why" was he assigned. That's where destiny comes in. Their Emissary was "sent" to them. The right circumstances just happened to come into play to allow that to happen. That's kind of how fate and destiny work.

Not if joining looked to be a no-brainer by the new planet in question, and not if the people of that planet had very little (if any) political clout. All they needed to do was to keep the Cardassians in line (that's what the security force was for) and present their offer of membership (a seasoned Commander could do this).

I would think that it would be the group work of a dedicated Ambassador and a major Starfleet presence possibly led by an Admiral to show that Starfleet considers their admission an important issue. I don't think it's crazy to think that an Admiral might get that kind of assignment. Do you?

I'm not saying any of these things because "I say so" but at least I am trying to provide some rational explanations for my thoughts.
And unfortunately, beggars can't be choosy. I don't think that the Federation thought of the Bajorans as beggars, but aside from some natural resources that could be traded (and membership wasn't needed for trade), there's nothing that they were in a real position to bring to the table. Offering them membership was also offering them help and protection. That doesn't seem rational to you? If it doesn't, then what great benefit do you think the Bajorans could offer the Federation BEFORE the wormhole opened up?


You provide this. "An Admiral? No." Not much to work with there is there.
You seem to be choosing not to read any of my other posts. That's okay; see above please.
The summary of your argument is essentially this.

The Bajorans don't offer a lot and wow they sure are a needy bunch. "Hey Sisko, can you go over there and just admit them into the Federation. You got this man."

Do you think the Federation is the kind of organization that only admits members into the Federation based off of their ability to add to their might? Every single Federation member isn't some military juggernaut adding to the military machine. The Bajorans were a deeply spiritual, artistic and unfortunately war torn people.

If it was such a no brainer then why did it take Sisko 7 years to get it done. Maybe they should have sent an Admiral Let's be clear, the Bajorans joining the Federation was never a "no brainer" they reacted very strongly to Starfleet's presence in their rebuilding efforts at first. They went through a hell of a lot before the ink hit the paper.

I actually do think the Bajorans had a lot to offer. They offered the Fed's the ability to maintain an outpost close to Cardassian space and they also have a lot of first hand intelligence regarding an enemy that the Federation themselves just finished fighting. Imagine if the Fed's blew off the request to help the Bajoran's because they felt they didn't bring anything to the table. When that wormhole appeared, who would become the 'beggers' then.
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Old August 27 2012, 02:34 AM   #36
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Re: Why was Sisko assigned to DS9?

Use of Time wrote: View Post

The summary of your argument is essentially this.

The Bajorans don't offer a lot and wow they sure are a needy bunch. "Hey Sisko, can you go over there and just admit them into the Federation. You got this man."
I could sum up your argument, but I try not to make a habit of telling people what they are saying. And apparently, they did think he had it. They sent him, didn't they?

Anyway, my main argument was that it was his destiny to be there and to be the Emissary of the Bajoran people. His rank wasn't as much of an issue as sending him was. Again, UoT, it was his destiny, and theirs too.

Do you think the Federation is the kind of organization that only admits members into the Federation based off of their ability to add to their might? Every single Federation member isn't some military juggernaut adding to the military machine. The Bajorans were a deeply spiritual, artistic and unfortunately war torn people.
You're jumping to conclusions. No, I don't think that of the Federation, but I also do think that it is taken into consideration, as all things would be. I'm sure Cardassia had a lot of art and things like that, and they weren't offered membership, IIRC.

I think the Federation saw what the Bajorans had been through, and the fact that after such a difficult time for 50 years they were trying to rebuild and purge Cardassian influences to keep to their identities and they saw it as a worthy and worthwhile cause. They wanted to not only help them with that, but to also offer them friendship, through membership.

If it was such a no brainer then why did it take Sisko 7 years to get it done. Maybe they should have sent an Admiral
You do remember that the wormhole opened up when their Emissary showed up, their Kai was lost to them and the political campaigning for a new Kai began, the loss of their trusted and beloved Kai also shook their newly founded government because she was kind of the glue that held things together, Sisko had just become the "chosen one" of a group of people he had just met in addition to the Commander of a station he had just been assigned to, oh and the WORMHOLE opened up, which changed things. And consequently, the wormhole only opened when their "chosen one" showed up.

Franky, "an Admiral" couldn't have done the job that Sisko did because the Prophets chose him, and only him, for the job.

(And as a side note, it didn't "take 7 years." They were going to join, and their Emissary told them not to at one point.)

I don't know why you place such a great need on this generic "Admiral," to be honest.

Let's be clear, the Bajorans joining the Federation was never a "no brainer" they reacted very strongly to Starfleet's presence in their rebuilding efforts at first. They went through a hell of a lot before the ink hit the paper.
Please see above. Part of the reason why they reacted strongly was because of political factions that were at odds, telling them this and that. No "Admiral" was going to do a better job (or even as good) at negotiating and reasoning with them than their Emissary was doing.

I actually do think the Bajorans had a lot to offer. They offered the Fed's the ability to maintain an outpost close to Cardassian space and they also have a lot of first hand intelligence regarding an enemy that the Federation themselves just finished fighting. Imagine if the Fed's blew off the request to help the Bajoran's because they felt they didn't bring anything to the table. When that wormhole appeared, who would become the 'beggers' then.
You want me to imagine something that didn't happen. I'm not going to do that because it's pointless. The Federation saw the Bajorans as a worthwhile people, otherwise they wouldn't have sent help and an offer in the first place.

You fail to realize that the wormhole didn't open up until the Prophets were ready for it to open, and they weren't ready until their chosen "Emissary" showed up.
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Old August 27 2012, 03:21 AM   #37
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Re: Why was Sisko assigned to DS9?

It's amusing that you call it a "no brainer" and then list political and religous turmoil as reasons that it took longer to admit them. Bajor's government was a mess long before Opaka died. Nothing "no brainer" about it. Hell, the first time we see Kira she is screaming at some member of their provisional government. She didn't seem very hopeful.

For the record I could care less about this mythical "Admiral" it's just that you dismissed it so flippantly without much rationale. I'm just discussing the fact that I considered the magnitude of that responsibility and respect for the Bajoran people to warrant the appearance of a high ranking official showing that the Federation is taking their situation seriously. I am very familiar with the whole Emissary concept but if you are telling me that the prophets reach extends to Earth and they somehow are responsible for Starfleet choosing him then I respectfully disagree. We have only seen them operate inside the wormhole or through their orbs. It's quite possible that when Sisko arrived the Prophets simply said "he'll do."

The reason we didn't invite the Carassians that were "artsy" into the Federation is pretty simple, we just finished fighting them in a war and they would be involved in another one with us shortly.

Your last comment about discussing something that didn't happen because it would be pointless is somewhat ironic to someone posting on this board. In short, it's kind of what we do here.

Lastly, I don't know why you feel the need to preface every comment to me with some condescending comment like "you do realize that" or "you did see the series didn't you" or "you do remember that." I don't like to be shit on so stop it will ya.
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Old August 27 2012, 03:50 AM   #38
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Re: Why was Sisko assigned to DS9?

Use of Time wrote: View Post
It's amusing that you call it a "no brainer" and then list political and religous turmoil as reasons that it took longer to admit them.

Again, we're talking about "why" he was sent. That "turmoil" didn't happen until after he had already been assigned there. He was not replaced by a Captain/Admiral by that time because he was their Emissary, and no one else would do.


Bajor's government was a mess long before Opaka died. Nothing "no brainer" about it. Hell, the first time we see Kira she is screaming at some member of their provisional government. She didn't seem very hopeful.

For the record I could care less about this mythical "Admiral" it's just that you dismissed it so flippantly without much rationale. I'm just discussing the fact that I considered the magnitude of that responsibility and respect for the Bajoran people to warrant the appearance of a high ranking official showing that the Federation is taking their situation seriously.
I said an Admiral or seasoned Captain wasn't required. If you think that was "flippant," then okay, but it doesn't change my opinion. Consequently, I'm not trying to change yours. It seems like it's "agree to disagree" time. I don't think that sending a seasoned Commander with a security detail to help them means that the Federation was not "taking their situation seriously." Apparently you do, so I'll agree to disagree.

By saying that there was no rationale (or that the rationale that I provided was somehow faulty) for sending a seasoned Commander, you seem to be pointing to a conclusion of the Federation being irrational in sending Sisko. Again, I'll agree to disagree.

You say you don't care about this "mythical Admiral," all the while saying that a "high ranking official" was necessary. This makes me wonder if you agree with yourself.


I am very familiar with the whole Emissary concept but if you are telling me that the prophets reach extends to Earth and they somehow are responsible for Starfleet choosing him then I respectfully disagree.
Um, that's actually in the show, though. Their "reach" extended to Sisko's mother. In the series, we mainly only saw them in the wormhole, or when the orbs were opened, but that doesn't mean that's where they only resided. Time wasn't linear for them, so maybe locations weren't set in stone either.

We have only seen them operate inside the wormhole or through their orbs. It's quite possible that when Sisko arrived the Prophets simply said "he'll do."
See above about their location, and about "he'll do." He was chosen long before he showed up and long before Starfleet sent him.

The reason we didn't invite the Carassians that were "artsy" is pretty simple, we just got done fighting them in a war and they would be involved in another one with us shortly.
They weren't in a war with them at the time, so it's possible they could have tried to "make friends" with them. Also, unless the Federation held a crystal ball, they couldn't know they'd be at war with them again.

Your last comment about discussing something that didn't happen because it would be pointless is somewhat ironic to someone posting on this board. In short, it's kind of what we do here.
Well, I haven't been here as long as you, so I can't say what's normal and what's not, but I thought we mainly talked about what did happen. That's what the majority of this board seems to be dedicated to, at least from my view.

Lastly, I don't know why you feel the need to preface every comment to me with some condescending comment like "You do realize that" or "you did see the series didn't you" or "you do remember that." I don't like to be shit on so stop it will ya.
I didn’t know why you felt the need to start off like that with me, but I can respond in kind. If I have offended you, I will apologize though. There’s no need for us to be rude to one another, especially if it bothers you.

I'm honestly ready to let this subject go anyway. You're not changing my mind, and it was never my intention to make you change yours. Peace?
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Old August 27 2012, 04:08 AM   #39
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Re: Why was Sisko assigned to DS9?

The Bajoran government was very much in turmoil before he got there. They were a "provisional" government at the time and a dysfunctional one.

I'm not disagreeing with myself either when I say Admiral or high ranking official. (this could be an ambassador) These are two separate things.

I didn't recall the episode with Sisko's mother. Again, you could have just said "that was in this episode" instead of prefacing it with the condescending "um." I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong I just don't understand the need to speak to me like I am a child.

About the Cardassians, you had specifically asked why the Federation didn't invite them. Just because they weren't at war with them didn't mean that the Cardassians were open to actually joining the Federation. It just meant that the military actions were done.

Yeah, I'm all set here but you strike me as a need to have the last word kind of person. This would have been a lot more fun if you could kill the snark.
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Old August 27 2012, 04:25 AM   #40
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Re: Why was Sisko assigned to DS9?

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The Bajoran government was very much in turmoil before he got there. They were a "provisional" government at the time and a dysfunctional one.
And yet, they were functioning well enough to negotiate with a "high ranking official," from what you've said.

I'm not disagreeing with myself either when I say Admiral or high ranking official. (this could be an ambassador) These are two separate things.
They are (or can be two separate things), so I stand corrected.

I'm not sure that an Ambassador alone would have worked. They needed someone that wasn't just able to function from a place of diplomacy. It seemed like someone in a military command position was necessary, especially since military were sent to help secure the station.

I didn't recall the episode with Sisko's mother. Again, you could have just said "that was in this episode" instead of prefacing it with the condescending "um." I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong I just don't understand the need to speak to me like I am a child.
I wasn't being condescending with the "Um." That's just the thought that I had. I didn't know saying "Um," means I think you're a child or that I'm dealing with you in such a way. A lot of people say "Um," a lot. It's just a placeholder in speech, as is "like," or "Ah."

About the Cardassians, you had specifically asked why the Federation didn't invite them. Just because they weren't at war with them didn't mean that the Cardassians were open to actually joining the Federation. It just meant that the military actions were done.
Yes, but how could they really know that the Cardassians weren't interested if they didn't try? What ever happened to "fight and make-up?" The Federation is supposed to be enlightened enough to at least try to do that. My point was that the Cardassians weren't given an invitation because the Federation didn't think them worthy, and not because they didn't have artistic worth, etc.

Yeah, I'm all set here but you strike me as a need to have the last word kind of person. This would have been a lot more fun if you could kill the snark.
You seem to be gearing for a fight. I'm not interested. I said I apologized if I offended you, and it would be nice if you could do the same. Things would have went a lot better if you had addressed me respectfully at the go. You first replied to me (negatively), and not the other way around.

If you'd like the last word, then you can have it. I'm done.
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Old August 27 2012, 04:44 AM   #41
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Re: Why was Sisko assigned to DS9?

This is funny. So many contradictions to earlier posts.

1. You yourself said that they weren't in turmoil until after Sisko got there. So I don't know what you are trying to say in the first comment.

2. I actually did say during all of this that I think bringing in a dedicated Ambassador with a Starfleet presence as well would be beneficial. Look again.

3. Your comments about the Cardassians are portraying something that "didn't happen" so they aren't worth discussing right?

4. I'm not gearing for a fight. Like I said, I just don't like to be shit on by people. Between the way you have talked to me and your pedantic nitpicking with Squiggly's metaphor you are far from the vicitim you are trying to portray. Add to the fact that you seem to be flip flopping back and forth on so much of this I can't help but feel like this is a game. I think this whole discussion for you was more about getting the best of me than actually extending the discussion for others.

Happy posting.
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Old September 10 2012, 12:23 AM   #42
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Re: Why was Sisko assigned to DS9?

The best way to think of it in modern times would be.

You have been assigned to run a port facility for the new government of a small Latin American country coming out of a Civil War. Your not going to insult them with a non-command officer, but a captain or higher wants a better command, a real starbase or ship. So you find a commander that has leadership skills, who going sideways, and send him out to run things and to gain some sort of rapport with the nation. The commander becomes buddies with some of the leaders and is running the port well.

Then oil is found....
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Old September 10 2012, 02:03 AM   #43
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Re: Why was Sisko assigned to DS9?

Use of Time wrote: View Post
Maybe they should have sent an Admiral
You know the Bajorans could have only agreeded to a commander running the station and may not have been open to the idea of a captain or admiral, remember it was their station they just let Starfleet run it and they.
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Old October 4 2012, 07:42 AM   #44
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Re: Why was Sisko assigned to DS9?

The Bajorans were leery enough of what little Starfleet presence was there. The feddies only sent a Commander because a higher-ranked officer might have signaled a new occupation to some of the Bajorans, specifically the jumpy Resistance guys. An Admiral or Captain signifies a permanent presence (and an Admiral a significant one), but a Commander shows enough rank to get things done, while still signifying a temporary/joint command.
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Old October 4 2012, 07:59 AM   #45
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Re: Why was Sisko assigned to DS9?

TheRoyalFamily wrote: View Post
The Bajorans were leery enough of what little Starfleet presence was there. The feddies only sent a Commander because a higher-ranked officer might have signaled a new occupation to some of the Bajorans, specifically the jumpy Resistance guys. An Admiral or Captain signifies a permanent presence (and an Admiral a significant one), but a Commander shows enough rank to get things done, while still signifying a temporary/joint command.
I agree with this. Eventually, the Bajorans were probably going to want to take over their own territory when they were ready. That looked to be a bit of a ways off (many years, really), but they got the right balance having a Commander there who became even more than that to them, a Captain and an Emissary.
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“The history of men's opposition to women's emancipation is more interesting perhaps than the story of that emancipation itself.” - Virginia Woolf
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