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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate The Eternal Tide.
Outstanding 82 49.40%
Above Average 50 30.12%
Average 27 16.27%
Below Average 2 1.20%
Poor 5 3.01%
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Old October 25 2012, 01:24 AM   #496
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JD wrote: View Post
I don't understand people being upset about Janeway's resurrection, there was a pretty blantant set up for her return in the end of Before Dishonor. Now, I'll admit, I would have preferred to see her stay dead, but the door was pretty clearly left open for her to return.
People keep misinterpreting that. Yes, there was a door left open a crack, but that wasn't because her return was intended from the start. The intention at the time was that she was dead for good, but the studio insisted that a bit of wiggle room be included just in case. It's the same as with B-4 having Data's memories. That wasn't there because Data was expected to come back, it was just a fallback position just in case. Since the contributors to a shared universe like ST can't control what later storytellers may decide to do, or how circumstances might change in the future, it's common to leave that kind of wiggle room for major changes -- not because the storytellers intend or expect the changes to be reversed, but just as a contingency in case something happens later to change things.
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Old October 25 2012, 01:41 AM   #497
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JD wrote: View Post
I don't understand people being upset about Janeway's resurrection...
Not upset, just voicing my opinion and my tastes in storytelling. There is a ton of science-fiction out there to read. Plenty of other science fiction out there to spend money on.

I don't plan on spending money on something I'm not interested in. I doubt many folks do.
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Old October 25 2012, 01:44 AM   #498
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I guess I worded that wrong. I just meant that they put in some stuff that could be used if they decided bring her back, and they decided to use it.
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Old October 25 2012, 01:53 AM   #499
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

^But what makes people upset is not that it wasn't set up or that they couldn't see it coming. It's that they didn't think it should have happened. You said that you yourself would've preferred it didn't happen, so I can't understand why you're confused that people are upset.
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Old October 25 2012, 08:11 AM   #500
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

In my opinion the next novel will show if resurrected Janeway serves a real (storytelling) purpose beyond a simple marketing stunt. Sure she played an important and unique role here in her resurrection story, but now it's time to see if Janeway can really bring anything to the table that couldn't have been done without her.
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Old October 25 2012, 08:21 AM   #501
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

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It still cheapens Janeway's death and it turns her into something of a messiah if she has to be there for every single event or else the universe won't turn out the way it's suppose too.
It's always been like that. You just didn't know about it so explicitly before.
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Old October 25 2012, 02:30 PM   #502
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

"Destiny" is nothing more than knowing the future and seeing how things turned out. If someone "has" to be there for an important event, it's not because it was preordained by some cosmic force; it's just because they happened to be in the right place at the right time for that particular timeline to turn out in a positive way. That's what happened here. In the original timeline, Janeway happened to be in the right place at the right time to make the key difference. When "Endgame" altered that history, it led to a timeline in which Janeway wouldn't be there to make that key difference, so Q Junior had to correct that.
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Old October 25 2012, 04:27 PM   #503
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Christopher wrote: View Post
"Destiny" is nothing more than knowing the future and seeing how things turned out. If someone "has" to be there for an important event, it's not because it was preordained by some cosmic force; it's just because they happened to be in the right place at the right time for that particular timeline to turn out in a positive way. That's what happened here. In the original timeline, Janeway happened to be in the right place at the right time to make the key difference. When "Endgame" altered that history, it led to a timeline in which Janeway wouldn't be there to make that key difference, so Q Junior had to correct that.
I think that Beyer's book disagrees with you. There is a very strong vibe throughout the whole book that there is something moving the universe. I mean, Janeway even becomes aware of her own soul,
“Faith.

Her soul.

They have always been there, underpinning what she believed were more useful to her: reason and passion. But, however briefly, Kathryn had touched something infinitely deeper. That short exposure had left her adrift but more firmly anchored to herself.

She had never shared with anyone the absolute devastation she had felt when a scientific explanation had been discovered to explain the ‘miracle.’ Had she spent more time in the company of her soul prior to this experience, the would not have been as quick to return to business as usual. Kathryn did not need to locate her soul within her. This ineffable thing was now the sum total of her reality”
So it certainly seems that there is more to the universe than even the Q know, since their immortality gives them no ability to know what lies beyond death for the soul.

"I know," Q offered, "but surely you are beginning to sense that as you exist now, there are many options available to you that were not when you were alive." Kathryn knew the truth of his words. But she did not understand how the tenuous connection she now felt to both the living universe and the exponentially greater power that still beckoned to her from beyond it would give her any power that could rival a Q.
There is something big out there even beyond the Q and that power, after reading this book twice seems to be destiny (whatever that means, since Beyer does not explain, just leaves it open to the reader to interpret.)

This idea is all throughout ST '09. These people, no matter what happens to the timeline are destined to be together, on a ship called Enterprise. This book is rife with the idea that people are in places at certain times for a reason. DS9, Sisko is created just to save Bajor, and now Junior and Eden have been created to heal a rift in the universe. Something is behind and the multiverse is not as random as we thought.

Now I am sure you will disagree. But I see this tread running through this entire book and found it really cool that Beyer would go there. Spock tells Valaris that she should have faith that the universe will unfold as it should. It seems that there are forces at work to bring about good in the universe and at work for balance. Faith, this is what Janeway is learning in this book, that there is something infinitely bigger out there than just science and reason and it starts with the soul.
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Old October 25 2012, 05:29 PM   #504
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Enterpriserules wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
"Destiny" is nothing more than knowing the future and seeing how things turned out. If someone "has" to be there for an important event, it's not because it was preordained by some cosmic force; it's just because they happened to be in the right place at the right time for that particular timeline to turn out in a positive way. That's what happened here. In the original timeline, Janeway happened to be in the right place at the right time to make the key difference. When "Endgame" altered that history, it led to a timeline in which Janeway wouldn't be there to make that key difference, so Q Junior had to correct that.
I think that Beyer's book disagrees with you. There is a very strong vibe throughout the whole book that there is something moving the universe.
Well, that wasn't really the sense I got from Kirsten when we were discussing the plot outline over e-mail last year. I'm pretty much summarizing how she explained the plot to me. There is something of a spiritual flavor to the book, granted, but I didn't get a "destiny" vibe from it. The way she explained her approach to me was that actions like altering history or bringing back the dead always come with a price, with unforeseen consequences that are usually negative. And in this case, the price was that an action Janeway performed that was essential to all timelines ended up not happening, and that needed to be corrected.

I guess it's possible that you could interpret the idea of changing history having consequences in some metaphysical "tampering with destiny" sort of a way if you were so inclined, but it didn't really feel that way to me. And I really think it runs counter to Star Trek's intrinsic humanism to treat any specific person like Janeway as some fated cosmic savior moved into place by divine forces, as somehow intrinsically above all other people. ST has always taken more of the view that all people have the potential to achieve greatness through their own effort and commitment.


I mean, Janeway even becomes aware of her own soul,
What's that got to do with destiny? They're entirely separate metaphysical concepts.


This idea is all throughout ST '09. These people, no matter what happens to the timeline are destined to be together, on a ship called Enterprise.
Except that the screenwriters derived that from quantum-physical principles, the notion that there's a most probable state for the wavefunction of the universe and that the majority of timelines would tend toward that more probable configuration. And of course, more fundamentally, from the dramatic necessity of creating a version of the familiar crew that we knew. They certainly didn't have any mystical or metaphysical intent behind it.


This book is rife with the idea that people are in places at certain times for a reason. DS9, Sisko is created just to save Bajor, and now Junior and Eden have been created to heal a rift in the universe. Something is behind and the multiverse is not as random as we thought.
Or, it really is random, but those who are able to look ahead and see the outcomes of events get the impression that it isn't, that certain things "had" to happen to bring about the outcomes that occurred. To a large extent it's just a question of perspective. Quantum physics suggests, at least in some interpretations, that the entire state of the multiverse throughout all time is deterministic, with all events and outcomes encoded into the universe's Schroedinger equation, and that the perception of free will or uncertainty arises simply from our inability to have complete information about that equation. Thus a notion of predestination can be formulated without any recourse to the metaphysical. But it can be argued that the only way to get that complete equation would be to step outside of time altogether and measure the whole universe, past, present and future, at once -- which effectively means you wouldn't be able to know how the universe turned out until you got to the end, so for all you'd know, it really did happen non-deterministically. Maybe every decision really is made freely, but when you look back on it after it's been made, it looks fixed to you at that point. (Like if you watch a recording of a baseball game after you already know who won. It may look to you as if the team that won is "destined" to win, but only because you already know how it turned out and how the various spontaneous events added up to produce the outcome you know.) So it's really just a matter of perspective.
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Old October 25 2012, 06:42 PM   #505
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I mean, Janeway even becomes aware of her own soul,
What's that got to do with destiny? They're entirely separate metaphysical concepts.
It has to do with the fact that there is a metaphysical part of the universe. There is something bigger and deeper than just the material. And yes I believe it is perspective and because your perspective is limiting your vision to the idea that something can have a metaphysical or spiritual component is the issue. I do not think that there is any reason that science and the metaphysical do not work in concert together. You may not have "felt" the idea of destiny, but I don't believe you would see it. As humans, if we don't search for something we never seem to find it or see it. Since you are always looking at pure reason like Janeway use to it will be hard to find the idea of "destiny" or the metaphysical. Yet Janeway, in this book learns that there is more to life than just reason and science; there is the metaphysical, something much deeper and more important and it all starts with the life of the soul, faith.

Kirsten herself responded to my review of the book at Trek.Fm and said this in response.
And Enterpriserules...yes, I read your review and was delighted that some of the more metaphysical aspects of the story worked for you. It can be a tough line to walk and I think a lot of people aren't comfortable going there. It's supposed to be "science" fiction after all. But in this case, given where we started and where we had to go, the spiritual aspects kept resonating so I decided to trust it. It's not something that every story calls for, but it is an aspect of humanity that I find every bit as interesting and worthy of exploration as any other if the context is appropriate and it serves the story.
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Last edited by Enterpriserules; October 25 2012 at 06:55 PM.
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Old October 25 2012, 08:03 PM   #506
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Enterpriserules wrote: View Post
I mean, Janeway even becomes aware of her own soul,
What's that got to do with destiny? They're entirely separate metaphysical concepts.
It has to do with the fact that there is a metaphysical part of the universe. There is something bigger and deeper than just the material.
That doesn't remotely answer the question. Just because destiny and the soul are both hypothetical metaphysical concepts, that doesn't mean they're directly intertwined, or that any given metaphysical model of the universe is required to include them both. Since we are talking about fiction here, there are countless different ways in which the imaginary physical or metaphysical laws of a fictional universe could be formulated. A work of fiction that presumes the existence of something that can be called a "soul" within its putative reality is not necessarily presuming the existence of destiny. The two concepts have nothing to do with each other beyond both falling into the general category of metaphysics.
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Old October 25 2012, 08:04 PM   #507
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

[QUOTE=Enterpriserules;7156180]
It has to do with the fact that there is a metaphysical part of the universe. There is something bigger and deeper than just the material. And yes I believe it is perspective and because your perspective is limiting your vision to the idea that something can have a metaphysical or spiritual component is the issue. I do not think that there is any reason that science and the metaphysical do not work in concert together.
I, too, think that metaphysics can be part of science fiction. After all, 'metaphysical' and 'spiritual' just denote concepts that haven't been described scientifically yet. Everything is explainable, it just requires enough knowledge, time and technology to be understood.
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Old October 25 2012, 09:12 PM   #508
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I think one of the problems with "Destiny" here is that it is also confused with preordination. Preordination is a path that is impossible to refuse, where Destiny implies individual choice. In "The Eternal Tide" there was a lot of choosing by a lot of characters.

Science Fiction in the past has chosen to ignore the metaphysical, yet is such a part of human experience; I don't believe it will be left behind when we step away from Earth.

“It’s not that there is no such thing as ‘Destiny’—it’s that ‘Destiny’ is far more complex than the Ancient Greeks knew.” Jacqueline Lichtenberg
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Old October 25 2012, 09:14 PM   #509
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

A work of fiction that presumes the existence of something that can be called a "soul" within its putative reality is not necessarily presuming the existence of destiny. The two concepts have nothing to do with each other beyond both falling into the general category of metaphysics.
And I see Beyer drawing the ideas of the soul, faith and destiny together in this book. That is what I am saying. She is using these metaphysical ideas, as she said in her post back to me, to help explain the reasons that Janeway had died and is being risen. Again I see these things because of my perspective of life. I hold to the metaphysical and spiritual alongside science and reason, so I look for both when I read a book or watch a film or listen to music. And again, from the story, Janeway finds that what is metaphysical has much more value in the end than the reason and science she has clung to for so many years. Faith, the soul and destiny are all apart of these things that she is beginning to see the value of.

“Faith.

Her soul.

They have always been there, underpinning what she believed were more useful to her: reason and passion. But, however briefly, Kathryn had touched something infinitely deeper. That short exposure had left her adrift but more firmly anchored to herself.

She had never shared with anyone the absolute devastation she had felt when a scientific explanation had been discovered to explain the ‘miracle.’ Had she spent more time in the company of her soul prior to this experience, the would not have been as quick to return to business as usual. Kathryn did not need to locate her soul within her. This ineffable thing was now the sum total of her reality”
I think one of the problems with "Destiny" here is that it is also confused with preordination. Preordination is a path that is impossible to refuse, where Destiny implies individual choice. In "The Eternal Tide" there was a lot of choosing by a lot of characters.

Science Fiction in the past has chosen to ignore the metaphysical, yet is such a part of human experience; I don't believe it will be left behind when we step away from Earth.

“It’s not that there is no such thing as ‘Destiny’—it’s that ‘Destiny’ is far more complex than the Ancient Greeks knew.” Jacqueline Lichtenberg
There is a fine line between the choosing and the idea of Destiny. Junior especially seems to know that he has been made for such a time as this, that it is his first, best destiny to save the galaxy. So he could choose to not save it, but that he will be the fullest and best him if he follows what he has been made to do. In much the same way that Harry Potter has the choice to not face Vold but knows that at the same time he must. Junior even makes a joke to this effect when he takes away Miral's messiahship "Being a messiah isn't all its cracked up to be." He can see that he has been made for this destiny, but would never wish this young girl to walk that road. He later tells this father, "It's not just the power, Father. You know that. It's also the vessel. I am the only Q in existence capable of containing all that I am, all that she needs...It has to be me." Then Janeway makes it abundantly clear
"Faith.....Nothing is certain here, but in my heart of hearts, I know he's right. You are both unique, the only individuals of your kind. You've already glimpsed his power. It's preventing you from returning to Omega even now. From the beginning this has been about balance; the child of the Q and the child of Omega are the balance restored.
A thin line indeed
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Last edited by Enterpriserules; October 25 2012 at 09:39 PM.
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Old October 26 2012, 12:21 AM   #510
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Yay. let's hijack Star Trek to propagate our culturally-conditioned superstitions!

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