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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate The Eternal Tide.
Outstanding 83 49.70%
Above Average 50 29.94%
Average 27 16.17%
Below Average 2 1.20%
Poor 5 2.99%
Voters: 167. You may not vote on this poll

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Old September 15 2012, 04:05 AM   #346
Shane Houston
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Halliwell wrote: View Post
And XYZ...no. See we are not butthurting over anything. You see...we won.
Indeed, you won.
And you still manage to be offended by anything - even statements that are in no way offensive.
This is how an extremist too invested in something to let it go, even after he 'won', acts.
Um like you are in this post. Correct?
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Old September 15 2012, 04:08 AM   #347
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Halliwell wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Halliwell wrote: View Post
And XYZ...no. See we are not butthurting over anything. You see...we won.
Indeed, you won.
And you still manage to be offended by anything - even statements that are in no way offensive.
This is how an extremist too invested in something to let it go, even after he 'won', acts.
Um like you are in this post. Correct?
Hardly.
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Old September 15 2012, 04:16 AM   #348
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Halliwell wrote: View Post
So would you still think it sad if people said they wouldn't buy a Batman novel if they killed Batman but kept Robin? What if TPTB of a Batman series of novels did that but kept saying over and over again that as long as the story is good, the Batman novels will still be Batman because they'll still have Robin, Commissioner Gordon and Bruce Wayne's butler.
That's a really, really terrible analogy, because the show was not called Janeway, it was called Star Trek: Voyager. It was not built around a single core character like Batman, but was an ensemble series. A better analogy would be a team book like Justice League -- which has gone through many cast changes over the years.

Plus, as JD said, they did kill Bruce Wayne, and the stories that followed were pretty interesting. Personally I'm sorry they brought him back, at least so soon. Or at least they should've let Dick Grayson remain Batman, maybe serving on the JL while Bruce handled Gotham. Permanent change is not a bad thing in an ongoing series.


When I buy a book with the title of Star Trek Voyager on the cover I expect it to have Janeway in it.
Why? It's named for the ship. Shows have changed lead characters before. Babylon 5 went from Sinclair to Sheridan. CSI went from Grissom to Langton to Russell. Earth: Final Conflict went from Boone to Kincaid to Palmer. Even Blake's 7, a show that was named for its main character, continued for two years after that main character was written out of the show.


She is the "Batman" to Chakotay's "Robin"
No, she really isn't, because it's not a two-person show, it's a nine-person show. And overall, Chakotay ended up being about fourth in prominence after Janeway, Seven, and the Doctor. A better analogy might be Janeway as Superman, Seven as Batman, the Doctor as Wonder Woman, and Chakotay as Green Lantern or Flash.


For more than 4 years the people that have joined together to speak out about her death have been told your voice doesn't count. Pocket doesn't care about what you want because your views are only a small fraction of the reading audience. Your little boycott while entertaining to us won't ever matter there will always be someone out there to buy our product.

There are some who think that their opinion and their opinion alone is the standing authority on this board and what they have to say about all things TrekLit stands.
You're misreading this completely. No, your position doesn't dictate story choices, but neither does mine (unless I'm the one writing the story) and neither does anyone else's. We're not telling you we're better than you, just that no faction of fandom, yours or anyone else's, dictates the choices of the people who write and edit the novels. Seriously, you need to get over this sense of persecution. It's just not what's happening here.


And these people are worse than the BBJ people (I include myself in that group even though I kept buying and reading the Voy relaunch books) because they never are open to changing their minds.
That is a blatant lie. I recall several posts in this very thread from people saying that they were opposed to the idea of Janeway returning, but really liked The Eternal Tide. They did change their minds.


Where was all this back and forth when the entire Enterprise book series was re-written just to bring back one dead character?
Ohh, there was a ton of argument over that. I'm sure that if you actually attempted to gather evidence by using the board's search function, you'd find that was true.


I remember TPTB at the time said they didn't like the direction that These Are The Voyages finale of Enterprise and took action to use the books they published to fix what they personally didn't like. The only different between those in charge of Trek novels at the time Enterprise was cancelled and the Bring Back Janeway people is that one group had the keys to the kingdom and one group didn't.
It's pretty strange that you're still reiterating that old argument now, when Janeway has, in fact, been brought back by the people in charge of Trek novels.


The message is Editors and TBTP and writers always right. And us little old fans are always wrong because we're not smart enough or because we don't get our facts straight enough or don't represent an audience enough to make a difference.
That's not even close to the message. As I suggested before, there may be reasons why Janeway fans feel they've been persecuted in the past, but it's a mistake to assume the people in the Trek Lit community are participants in that persecution. You're just hearing what you expect to hear rather than what's really being said. You need to learn to lower your defenses and try actually listening. Especially now when Janeway actually is back and there's really nothing to fight over anymore.
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Old September 15 2012, 04:24 AM   #349
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

The BBKJ fans listened plenty, more than enough, and heard over and over how mistaken and/or misguided they were, and they're STILL hearing that, even though they did get what they advocated for (no matter why it was decided that way), amazing (well not really- just MO of course) !
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Old September 15 2012, 04:36 AM   #350
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Christopher wrote: View Post
Halliwell wrote: View Post
So would you still think it sad if people said they wouldn't buy a Batman novel if they killed Batman but kept Robin? What if TPTB of a Batman series of novels did that but kept saying over and over again that as long as the story is good, the Batman novels will still be Batman because they'll still have Robin, Commissioner Gordon and Bruce Wayne's butler.
That's a really, really terrible analogy, because the show was not called Janeway, it was called Star Trek: Voyager. It was not built around a single core character like Batman, but was an ensemble series. A better analogy would be a team book like Justice League -- which has gone through many cast changes over the years.

Plus, as JD said, they did kill Bruce Wayne, and the stories that followed were pretty interesting. Personally I'm sorry they brought him back, at least so soon. Or at least they should've let Dick Grayson remain Batman, maybe serving on the JL while Bruce handled Gotham. Permanent change is not a bad thing in an ongoing series.


When I buy a book with the title of Star Trek Voyager on the cover I expect it to have Janeway in it.
Why? It's named for the ship. Shows have changed lead characters before. Babylon 5 went from Sinclair to Sheridan. CSI went from Grissom to Langton to Russell. Earth: Final Conflict went from Boone to Kincaid to Palmer. Even Blake's 7, a show that was named for its main character, continued for two years after that main character was written out of the show.




No, she really isn't, because it's not a two-person show, it's a nine-person show. And overall, Chakotay ended up being about fourth in prominence after Janeway, Seven, and the Doctor. A better analogy might be Janeway as Superman, Seven as Batman, the Doctor as Wonder Woman, and Chakotay as Green Lantern or Flash.




You're misreading this completely. No, your position doesn't dictate story choices, but neither does mine (unless I'm the one writing the story) and neither does anyone else's. We're not telling you we're better than you, just that no faction of fandom, yours or anyone else's, dictates the choices of the people who write and edit the novels. Seriously, you need to get over this sense of persecution. It's just not what's happening here.




That is a blatant lie. I recall several posts in this very thread from people saying that they were opposed to the idea of Janeway returning, but really liked The Eternal Tide. They did change their minds.




Ohh, there was a ton of argument over that. I'm sure that if you actually attempted to gather evidence by using the board's search function, you'd find that was true.


I remember TPTB at the time said they didn't like the direction that These Are The Voyages finale of Enterprise and took action to use the books they published to fix what they personally didn't like. The only different between those in charge of Trek novels at the time Enterprise was cancelled and the Bring Back Janeway people is that one group had the keys to the kingdom and one group didn't.
It's pretty strange that you're still reiterating that old argument now, when Janeway has, in fact, been brought back by the people in charge of Trek novels.


The message is Editors and TBTP and writers always right. And us little old fans are always wrong because we're not smart enough or because we don't get our facts straight enough or don't represent an audience enough to make a difference.
That's not even close to the message. As I suggested before, there may be reasons why Janeway fans feel they've been persecuted in the past, but it's a mistake to assume the people in the Trek Lit community are participants in that persecution. You're just hearing what you expect to hear rather than what's really being said. You need to learn to lower your defenses and try actually listening. Especially now when Janeway actually is back and there's really nothing to fight over anymore.
See. I knew it wouldn't take you long to come in here to tell me how wrong I am and how my facts are wrong. You know because you were my favorite author I let you make me think that some how if I disagreed with your opinions that I was the one wrong. But that was a mistake on my part. After years of reading your posts I realize that it's predictable ...you're responses.

But nothing you said up there or anywhere else the last 5 years makes you any more right than I am.

Because of this thread I'm reminded of one of my favorite Kathryn Janeway scenes...

"You know, I'm really easy to get along with most of the time, but I don't like bullies and I don't like threats, and I don't like 'you', Culluh."
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Old September 15 2012, 04:44 AM   #351
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Sooooo... any comments on the actual subject of this thread?

I enjoyed the relationship between Q and Janeway. I honestly think that Q has a closer relationship with Janeway than he does with Picard.
Here is a comment that I found interesting. Q(junior) is of the opinion that the Q did not reproduce because they were uncertain what they would create. Is it possible that the "child" of two Q is stronger than a "original" Q?
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Old September 15 2012, 04:58 AM   #352
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Jedi_Master wrote: View Post
Here is a comment that I found interesting. Q(junior) is of the opinion that the Q did not reproduce because they were uncertain what they would create. Is it possible that the "child" of two Q is stronger than a "original" Q?
It's an interesting idea to consider, and since the Q don't reproduce in the same manner that humans do we can look at other possibilities. Instead of q receiving half of his "Q-ness" from his mother and half from his father (which would result in him having the same amount of power as his parents) he could have more if the full potential of his parents was passed on to him.

I think of it like this:

a) half from each parent (let x represent the Q's power):

1/2x + 1/2x = x

So q ends up with the same amount of power as each of his parents.

b) full potential of each parent:

x + x = 2x

But in this case he would have twice his parents' power.

It would probably be far more complicated than this since the Q do not operate on finite principles like we do. Also, I am by no means an expert in genetics or exobiology, so this is just my hypothesis.
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Old September 15 2012, 04:58 AM   #353
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Halliwell wrote: View Post
See. I knew it wouldn't take you long to come in here to tell me how wrong I am and how my facts are wrong. You know because you were my favorite author I let you make me think that some how if I disagreed with your opinions that I was the one wrong.
My opinions have nothing to do with this. Fact and opinion are two entirely separate things. Opinions are personal and nobody can take them away from you, but facts are objective, and nobody has the right to support their opinions by distorting or misrepresenting the facts. If you say "I like Janeway and prefer to read stories about her," that is an opinion and I can't argue with it. But if you say "The people who disagree with me are incapable of changing their minds" -- in the very thread where several of them have already declared that they changed their minds -- then that is simply, unambiguously wrong.

But clearly you're prejudiced to see an argument based in objectivity as some kind of further persecution against you, so there's no point in continuing this conversation.


Violet.Phoenix wrote: View Post
I think of it like this:

a) half from each parent (let x represent the Q's power):

1/2x + 1/2x = x

So q ends up with the same amount of power as each of his parents.

b) full potential of each parent:

x + x = 2x

But in this case he would have twice his parents' power.
Why not x * x = x^2? Or... dare I say it... Q Squared?
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Old September 15 2012, 05:05 AM   #354
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Violet.Phoenix wrote: View Post
I think of it like this:

a) half from each parent (let x represent the Q's power):

1/2x + 1/2x = x

So q ends up with the same amount of power as each of his parents.

b) full potential of each parent:

x + x = 2x

But in this case he would have twice his parents' power.
Why not x * x = x^2? Or... dare I say it... Q Squared?[/QUOTE]


Hah! Q squared!

Just as a child is a unique blend of two sets of DNA and can thus have abilities that his or her parents do not have, perhaps Q(junior) simply had some natural resistance to the Omega continuum. Perhaps that is what the Q feared, a change to the status quo, something new and different.
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Old September 15 2012, 05:05 AM   #355
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Christopher wrote: View Post

Violet.Phoenix wrote: View Post
I think of it like this:

a) half from each parent (let x represent the Q's power):

1/2x + 1/2x = x

So q ends up with the same amount of power as each of his parents.

b) full potential of each parent:

x + x = 2x

But in this case he would have twice his parents' power.
Why not x * x = x^2? Or... dare I say it... Q Squared?
I honestly can't think of a reason why not (like I said, I'm no geneticist), but when I was thinking of the addition, I was thinking of combining parts into a new whole. I do think that the x*x = x^2 also works as that still gives a new result from a combination. Although, perhaps I should change my variable from x to Q
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Old September 15 2012, 05:10 AM   #356
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Jedi_Master wrote: View Post
Sooooo... any comments on the actual subject of this thread?

I enjoyed the relationship between Q and Janeway. I honestly think that Q has a closer relationship with Janeway than he does with Picard.
Here is a comment that I found interesting. Q(junior) is of the opinion that the Q did not reproduce because they were uncertain what they would create. Is it possible that the "child" of two Q is stronger than a "original" Q?
I think that is what was mentioned in the book. The whole reason Junior had to go instead if letting his father face off Eden was for that reason.

Here's my question: I wonder why Q and the Female Q can't just mate again.

On a side what Eternal Tide gave me more than a Janeway return was a chance to reflect on my own spiritual beliefs. It made me seriously consider what life after death really means.
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Old September 15 2012, 05:10 AM   #357
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

All I know is that I still laugh whenever I think of the scene where Q and Q "mated".

'Was I good?'

'oh you were VERY good'
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Old September 15 2012, 05:20 AM   #358
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Jedi_Master wrote: View Post
All I know is that I still laugh whenever I think of the scene where Q and Q "mated".

'Was I good?'

'oh you were VERY good'
I just remember Q saying to Janeway "Don't you like to watch?"

And then Janeway's shocked expression afterwards. "That was it?!"

That episode had some good laughs in it.
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Old September 15 2012, 05:21 AM   #359
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Christopher wrote: View Post
Halliwell wrote: View Post
See. I knew it wouldn't take you long to come in here to tell me how wrong I am and how my facts are wrong. You know because you were my favorite author I let you make me think that some how if I disagreed with your opinions that I was the one wrong.
My opinions have nothing to do with this. Fact and opinion are two entirely separate things. Opinions are personal and nobody can take them away from you, but facts are objective, and nobody has the right to support their opinions by distorting or misrepresenting the facts. If you say "I like Janeway and prefer to read stories about her," that is an opinion and I can't argue with it. But if you say "The people who disagree with me are incapable of changing their minds" -- in the very thread where several of them have already declared that they changed their minds -- then that is simply, unambiguously wrong.

But clearly you're prejudiced to see an argument based in objectivity as some kind of further persecution against you, so there's no point in continuing this conversation.


Violet.Phoenix wrote: View Post
I think of it like this:

a) half from each parent (let x represent the Q's power):

1/2x + 1/2x = x

So q ends up with the same amount of power as each of his parents.

b) full potential of each parent:

x + x = 2x

But in this case he would have twice his parents' power.
Why not x * x = x^2? Or... dare I say it... Q Squared?
Pot calling the kettle black much? You're calling me prejudiced? No, I have to disagree. If I was as prejudiced as you claimed I never would have bought Full Circle and Unworthy when they first came out of either of the two DTI books. Because my prejuice for how Janeway's death in Before Dishonor and my feelings towards your words here on the BBS would have kept me from buying them. I have the ability to be open minded enough to listen to other peoples words instead of being on the trigger to shoot them down.


Again nothing you have said tonight is anymore right than anything I said. You like facts let that one sink in.

Beyer is now my favorite author not because of my opinion of you or her personally. It's because Full Circle and Eternal Tide has helped me more than just entertain me. I've experienced the loss of my Uncle and Aunt and best friend all in three years time. I went through phases of grief that is portrayed in Full Circle and the hope there is something better after we die in Eternal Tide. That's why I enjoy reading your work so much. The books the two of you write both entertain me and also make me think. You're still one of my favorite writers. But I disagree with how you've handled yourself in the Janeway discussions over the last few years.

I guess I'm going to end this discussion tonight by telling myself...

Dismissed. That's a Starfleet expression for Get Out.

Goodnight.
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Old September 15 2012, 05:48 AM   #360
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Halliwell I wanted to say I am sorry to hear about your losses over the course of a few short years. I know this will never help much but I wanted you to know that my heart goes out to you.
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