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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate The Eternal Tide.
Outstanding 84 49.70%
Above Average 50 29.59%
Average 28 16.57%
Below Average 2 1.18%
Poor 5 2.96%
Voters: 169. You may not vote on this poll

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Old September 13 2012, 06:18 PM   #301
hbquikcomjamesl
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Hmm. On the one hand, Amanda's demise was senseless in a way that transcended the senselessness of Tasha Yar's demise in Skin of Evil. (At least in that case, there was a point to the pointlessness.)

But on the other hand, we don't know that she's dead. She may be wiped from ever having existed in the multiverse or in the Q Continuum, but all we really know is that she's in the Omega Continuum. Which is also all we know about q and Eden, for that matter.

In addition to the B5 parallel I already mentioned (and will Janeway suddenly either drop dead or vanish without a trace in precisely 20 years?), I also see parallels with the very first Pocket ST novel (not counting the novelization of TMP), The Entropy Effect. In both novels, changes to history are involved, and in both novels, they're linked to accelerated heat-death of the universe. And I also find myself thinking of The Wounded Sky.
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Old September 13 2012, 06:24 PM   #302
Anika Hanson
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Not sure how I feel about Janeway coming back. I had just gotten over/used to the fact that she was gone and now they bring her back. Hmm. It was a good book otherwise. Haven't had a good Q book in a while too.
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Old September 13 2012, 06:30 PM   #303
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

hbquikcomjamesl wrote: View Post

But on the other hand, we don't know that she's dead. She may be wiped from ever having existed in the multiverse or in the Q Continuum, but all we really know is that she's in the Omega Continuum. Which is also all we know about q and Eden, for that matter.
Thanks for calling him q. When he was first called that in The Q Continuum I thought it was incredibly clever. Every time I see "Q," "Junior," or... ugh... "Q2" I am disappointed.

I for one hope Amanda, q, and Eden all come back. I want to see exploration of the friendship between a Q and a mortal, and two Q. I was also disappointed that Icheb and q were established to have not seen each other since "Q2."

On the subject of Icheb, throwing him back onto Voyager was kind of weak. I want him to be shown, as he is a character I really like, but he really needs to get a life outside of Voyager. Doesn't he have any friends among his peers? Or at all? It's not like he and the Voyager crew (aside from Seven) were close.

And Eden is a character with lots of potential!

Last edited by ToddCam; September 13 2012 at 06:35 PM. Reason: Another thought
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Old September 13 2012, 09:51 PM   #304
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

That was wonderful. Thank you, Kirsten!
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Old September 14 2012, 01:22 AM   #305
Manisphere
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I LOVE Kirsten Beyer! I loved the book. I've loved all of her books. Beyer and Mack. Those are the two writers that remind me of everything that's missing in Star Wars fiction and lots of Trek fiction.

Beyer. She adds a level of warmth and spirituality to Trek that is sometimes rare. It didn't hurt that I love Q and the "timey-wimey" way of looking at our universe. Prose that make me tear up. Awesome stuff!
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Old September 14 2012, 06:32 AM   #306
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I bought this book a few days ago and was happy to see the book focus on the tv characters and the new characters are important.it's nice to see Q continuimn being part of the story and Eden is a really mysterious character.I'm curious to find out what happens to Seven of Nine and the visions she's been experiencing too.
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Old September 14 2012, 09:55 AM   #307
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Scout101 wrote: View Post

Looking forward to watching Team Janeway go back and read the stuff they were boycotting, and seeing them realize how silly it was, and how they were depriving themselves of some pretty amazing reading.
You know the books don't expire. They aren't a concert I boycotted so will never see. I'm not in the least bit deprived because I'm reading some books a few years after they were published.

Just ordered two more copies of The Eternal Tide. Making good on my promises should Janeway come back
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Old September 14 2012, 11:46 AM   #308
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Just pointing out that the books you were boycotting (which had exactly zero to do with Janeway's return, I assume you realize?) were better than the ones you were happily reading before her death. And had more of, and better treatment of, Janeway than the several books before her death.

Had you read one or two of them and THEN decided to boycott because it wasn't the direction you enjoyed, could have had a measure of respect for that. Again, not that it would have accomplished anything, but it's your decision to quit, and can't make you read them. It looked silly because you quit at a low point, and then were vocal about how they all weren't reading without Janeway, when those of use that WERE reading them knew better. That you WEREN'T protesting starting with Spirit Walk, where Janeway is sidelined, marginalized, and basically a throw-away character out on her own, but then got loud about the time that Full Circle hit shelves, and Janeway was front and center and got better treatment than she'd received in most EPISODES, much less the book series, strikes me as ironic I guess.

Either way, looking forward to the reviews on Full Circle, Unworthy, and Children of the Storm from the ex-boycotters. Suspect you'll figure out why everyone was telling you that you should have been reading them immediately if you were really Janeway fans. Skipping Full Circle felt to me like claiming you love someone, and then skipping their eulogy/wake. Just odd...
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Old September 14 2012, 12:10 PM   #309
teacake
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Scout I am not interested in having a "measure of respect". I was interested in making a point via a boycott, which I have done. While I am sure many will be quick to say it was a pointless point it did attract enough attention that some are still commenting on it, such as yourself. It generated some buzz on the subject of Janeway. Now you may say buzz on facebook and forums is worth jack and you may be correct, if you measure it purely by whether it influenced TPTB. I don't measure it that way, so I'm very pleased with the boycott. That Kirsten Beyer herself has read the buzz and responded in threads here is enough for me.
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Old September 14 2012, 05:41 PM   #310
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

You're right, Kristen DID comment on it. Believe it was the notes at the end of The Eternal Tide, essentially stating that she wasn't pressured or influenced into having Janeway return, and to please not view the return in that light, but that she did it for her own creative reasons. (Paraphrasing, don't have it in front of me)

I read that as her being worried that people would think that things like your boycott and 'buzz' influenced this decision, and wanting to disuade people of that notion...

And directly responding to your posts isn't the same thing as people "still commenting on it". You said something, i responded to it. Didn't create some big movement that's in people's consciousnesses, and we're still buzzing over the impact.

Either way, that was kinda the minor point in my post, in favor of the bigger part you didn't seem to want to address. Janeway was more a part of Full Circle (and treated better) than in the Spirit Walk books before, but no protest to her being shunted aside and being useless there. Why not? Didn't miss her then, but kill off (with the obvious Q out that was there, even) a character that's alternating between not being used, and used badly, and it's end of the world? Were you ENJOYING Janeway's story before her death?

And the boycott was kinda all over the place anyway, when the people that have chimed in so far have said they read them all anyway, but maybe got from the library instead of buying, or got from used book store. I applaud the purchasing of several copies of TET to attempt to use your wallet to show approval of the return, but suspect the couple extra copies will have about the same impact as the refusing to buy the last couple books until now. That is to say, little to none. Suspect TPTB will just see it as approval of how Kristen has been doing all along, as believe her numbers for all the books in this run have been pretty good.
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Old September 14 2012, 07:29 PM   #311
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I finished the book a couple of days ago, and I have to say I was very impressed!

I was part of the campaign to Bring Back Kathryn Janeway (please don't be horrible, we were just voicing or opinion. Calling us names isn't going to accomplish anything, it's just hurtful and not necessary!) and I was happy with how Kirsten Beyer managed the return, and I loved the J/C aspects of the book

I've read all the other Voyager books, and this has to be my favourite so far, as sad as it is for the characters, I'm quite glad that the fleet has been cut down to just a few ships, I felt as though with the mass of new characters, it was hard to keep up at times. However some of the more permanent new Trek characters (Such as Cambridge, Conlon and Eden) have been well introduced and I'm looking forward to the development of them, for example, what's going to happen with Cambridge and Seven?

Also, I'm excited for how Beyer's going to develop the J/C relationship, especially with Chakotay working under Janeway, but then again that's what the chain of command was like on Voyager, so it shouldn't be too much of a change, really. As well as this, I'm looking forward to the Paris/Torres parts (Exciting, huh?)

I loved the Q aspect of the book, especially the parts with q and Janeway (It's nice that Beyer's using the Godmother/Godson aspect, and that q has so much faith and trust in Janeway) and the moral issues the Q family were facing.

All in all, I was very happy with this book, I will definitely be reading it again soon, and will be on the lookout for the next book in the series!
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Old September 14 2012, 07:51 PM   #312
Kataaran
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I didn't buy them but I did read Full Circle and Unworthy. I read them so I could make an informed decision, I suspected I wouldn't really enjoy Voyager without Janeway but I wanted to make sure. I've since bought both Children of the Storm and The Eternal Tide because for me, the series is heading in a direction I'm happier with. I know a publishing company won't give a toss if I don't buy one copy of a book that sell thousands, but on principle I don't hand over my money for things I'm not happy with.

And yes, the Spirit Walk books sucked.
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Old September 14 2012, 07:52 PM   #313
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

heath_96 wrote: View Post
I was part of the campaign to Bring Back Kathryn Janeway (please don't be horrible, we were just voicing or opinion. Calling us names isn't going to accomplish anything, it's just hurtful and not necessary!)
I don't think anyone here wants to be "horrible" to the Janeway fans. But some of the BBJers posting on this board repeatedly made statements that were not simply opinions but were factually untrue and abusive to the creators involved, and we couldn't just let those false statements go unchallenged. There's nothing wrong with an honest difference of opinion, but if that difference of opinion crosses the line into dishonesty, into the propagation of false and unjust accusations against Pocket Books and its authors, then that is not acceptable. So it wasn't about their opinions, it was about the tactics they used. However much those individuals may have tried to paint themselves as persecuted victims, they were the ones doing the attacking and the flaming, and the rest of us were just standing up to them.

But of course there are always extremists who bring out the worst in any cause, and that shouldn't be held against the more reasonable majority. There's nothing unfair or counterfactual in your post, just the kind of healthy, normal voicing of opinion that we should all strive to employ, so there's no reason for anyone to react badly.
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Old September 14 2012, 08:04 PM   #314
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

If people didn't want to read Voy. books without Kathryn Janeway alive it was their concern and it's not for someone to tell them they were wrong or “silly”. I DID read Unworthy and found it rather uninteresting without KJ, but won't go into other details because this is not a review thread for that particular book. BTW her name was mentioned but 13 times there (out of almost 400 pages) and only half of that by the crew who were so upset by her passing a short time before (thank goodness for Tom/B'Elanna), hardly a large presence. I then, after looking into Children of the Storm, where only about half of it was set on Voyager, decided wasn't too interested in reading it. Now I think might read some of it, well maybe just the Voyager parts, to get information about the other canon Voyager characters. And I checked, Janeway's name was mentioned 8 times in COTS (mostly in passing), again not much of a presence; it seemed to me that KJ was going to be forgotten.

Now that’s my opinion but I’m free to espouse it as anyone. And BTW, I didn’t feel KJ was so marginalized in the Spirit Watch books, she was featured in the story as much as any canon Voyager character. Janeway was the lead character of Voyager (the captain, first in the credits, the most lines overall, yes I checked that out), but she wasn’t the main focus of every episode, so isn’t that strange she wasn’t the most important one in the last two Golden books. At least she was alive and well. Anyway, if people (almost 1000 on Facebook and others elsewhere) wanted to band together to advocate for their character’s return it was also their right. KJ people received a lot of flak for their advocacy, even maybe now, but they persevered anyway. And, no matter how the decision was made to bring Janeway back, the KJ-return fans have gotten just what they wanted in TET, and this is after even about six months ago the idea still of her coming back was discounted. So who’s “silly” now, not the happy Janeway fans, it would seem.

Last edited by Galekarens; September 14 2012 at 08:27 PM.
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Old September 14 2012, 08:49 PM   #315
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Galekarens wrote: View Post
If people didn't want to read Voy. books without Kathryn Janeway alive it was their concern and it's not for someone to tell them they were wrong or “silly”.
That's absolutely true, as a matter of principle. But if they argue for that opinion by making provably false statements or unfair accusations about the motivations behind Pocket's storytelling choices, then, as a matter of principle, it is absolutely justified to call them on their factual errors, and that is what actually happened here in the past -- for example. Certain posters were not simply expressing their fondness for Janeway, but were making blatantly false statements about what Pocket's policy on the matter had been -- for instance, claiming that the people in charge of Pocket had declared Janeway would never return, when the fact was that the only person employed by Pocket to say anything on the subject, editor Margaret Clark, clearly hinted that it was possible she would return, or claiming that no male character would be treated as Janeway had, ignoring the fact that Kirk had been killed off in canon many years before, and that in fact the majority of canonical characters killed in Trek literature have been male. These are not matters of opinion or taste but matters of objective fact, and yes, it is quite possible to be wrong about matters of fact. Correcting those factual errors was not the same thing as saying that people were wrong to like Kathryn Janeway or want her back.


I DID read Unworthy and found it rather uninteresting without KJ, but won't go into other details because this is not a review thread for that particular book. BTW her name was mentioned but 13 times there (out of almost 400 pages) and only half of that by the crew who were so upset by her passing a short time before (thank goodness for Tom/B'Elanna), hardly a large presence. I then, after looking into Children of the Storm, where only about half of it was set on Voyager, decided wasn't too interested in reading it. Now I think might read some of it, well maybe just the Voyager parts, to get information about the other canon Voyager characters. And I checked, Janeway's name was mentioned 8 times in COTS (mostly in passing), again not much of a presence; it seemed to me that KJ was going to be forgotten.
There's more to a character's legacy than how many times her surname is spoken aloud. Our departed loved ones, especially recently departed ones, loom large in our thoughts and affect our reactions and choices even when we don't mention them by name.


Now that’s my opinion but I’m free to espouse it as anyone else.
Yes, but others are equally free to express disagreement with it. That's not suppression of your rights, it's open debate on a level playing field. So there's no need for this defensive rhetoric. You are not and never have been persecuted -- at least not on this BBS as far as I've seen.
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