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Old August 4 2012, 07:44 AM   #1
Kirok_of_LStok
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Fan Fiction to Indie: Would you? Could you?

The unthinkable has happened! A fan fiction author has made the bestseller lists! From Wikipaedia...

The Fifty Shades trilogy was developed from a Twilight fan fiction originally titled Master of the Universe and published episodically on fan-fiction websites under the pen name "Snowqueen's Icedragon". The piece featured characters named after Stephenie Meyer's characters in Twilight, Edward Cullen and Bella Swan. After comments concerning the sexual nature of the material, James removed the story from the fan-fiction websites and published it on her own website, FiftyShades.com. Later she rewrote Master of the Universe as an original piece, with the principal characters renamed Christian Grey and Anastasia Steele and removed it from her website prior to publication. Meyer commented on the series, saying "that's really not my genre, not my thing ... Good on her—she's doing well. That's great!"
I've never read it although She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed is on the third book and been quite enthralled by it. Whatever its' literary merit, it is certainly a commercial success in the multimillion dollar, romance/erotic novel industry.

Whilst I would be interested in hearing the opinion of Adult Trek fan fiction authors on it, that's not my primary point.

Have you ever thought of writing an Indie novel? Specifically, have you ever looked at one of your stories and thought, "Damn! That could make it commercially! All I need to do is take out the Trekkie stuff!" How vital to your stories is the Trek connection?

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Old August 4 2012, 10:39 AM   #2
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Re: Fan Fiction to Indie: Would you? Could you?

Didn't know that started out as a fan fic. That's interesting. While I haven't read any of those books, it's not easy these days not to know of somebody who has. Good or bad, it's clearly a phenomenon.

I've written a cyber-punk inspired Trek fan fic which could quite easily be turned into an original story by removing the Trek references. But I always though the Trek connections made it more interesting so I never seriously considered doing it.
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Old August 4 2012, 11:33 AM   #3
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Re: Fan Fiction to Indie: Would you? Could you?

What interests me about the "Fifty Shades" phenomenon is that it sort of invalidates the cultural snobbery that is aimed at fan fiction, that fanfic is intrinsically wrong. I think Richard Lawson was only being slightly tongue-in-cheek when he used her fanfic roots as being grounds for saying E.L. James should not be included in Time magazine's 2012 100 Most Influential list.
[She] has had a moment recently and all, her BDSM sex novel Fifty Shades of Grey has been good blog bait and sold well, but we are still talking about what started as Twilight fan fiction. Really. Look it up. Change Christian to Edward and Anastasia to Bella and that's how part of the book originally read. So that probably doesn't merit inclusion on this holiest of lists, does it? Though, hm. We are sitting here typing and reading about Twilight fanfiction in the middle of the day, so... OK, yeah, maybe that is pretty damn influential.
Perhaps its influential in showing that the roots of what people want to read don't have to come from the traditional literary path of "starving artist in a garret" - agent chasing publisher to get contract - bookshop. In her case it was more a case of online fan fiction - commercial e-book - print-on-demand paperback - publisher coming to her with a contract.

For what it's worth I doubt if I could write out the Trek connection of my fan fiction, they are too canon character or culture dependent. Mind you, some of the original characters I've created will almost certainly have a place in any Indie fic I write. How could I ignore my children like that?

K
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Old August 4 2012, 04:19 PM   #4
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Re: Fan Fiction to Indie: Would you? Could you?

I think the best part of it is that it's starting to show people that ff is not the horror show that people make it out to be a lot of the time. I am not commenting on the quality of Fifty Shades, more the fact that it's got a substantial readership. Hence that should prompt a lot of people to think, hey, there might be something else out there that I like.
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Old August 5 2012, 08:39 AM   #5
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Re: Fan Fiction to Indie: Would you? Could you?

If it worked for Marion Zimmer Bradley and her Darkover fans (Bradley's earliest fanfic efforts are based on stories she read by C.L. Moore and Henry Kuttner), why wouldn't it work for Trek fans?

Where do you think some of the best Trek authors got their early writers' training, anyway? Diane Duane got her start in fanfic. So did many others. And now they're professional writers - who have at times used earlier material and changed out the fanfic elements.

It wouldn't have taken Harlan Ellison very much rewriting to make City on the Edge of Forever into a non-Trek story, or even screenplay.
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Old August 5 2012, 10:38 AM   #6
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Re: Fan Fiction to Indie: Would you? Could you?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Where do you think some of the best Trek authors got their early writers' training, anyway? Diane Duane got her start in fanfic. So did many others. And now they're professional writers - who have at times used earlier material and changed out the fanfic elements.
Very true, Jacqueline Lichtenberg and Jean Lorrah's Sime Gen universe is the classic example, but never to this scale. Hmmm can't think of that kind of thing - fan authors stepping up to professional publishing of Trek - happening from TNG onwards though. In fact I remember something, might have been back in the "Strange New Worlds" days, where we were specifically told that S&S choose their authors from established talents so you have to make a name for yourself outside Trek first.

Could well be wrong, the old grey matter ain't what she used to be!

K
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Old August 5 2012, 10:49 AM   #7
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Re: Fan Fiction to Indie: Would you? Could you?

I just scored a couple of fan novels written by Sonni Cooper - the author of Black Fire. Sure, they're Star Trek fan novels... but so what? Sonni Cooper's writing entertains me, and I've met her. She's a very nice lady, with a wicked sense of humor.

Another name I encountered just tonight while perusing ST fanzines is Melanie Rawn. I hadn't known she got her start in ST fanzines. But now she's a professional writer. But since I haven't read anything she's written, I have no idea what, if any, of it may be based on her fan writing.
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Old August 5 2012, 11:48 AM   #8
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Re: Fan Fiction to Indie: Would you? Could you?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
I just scored a couple of fan novels written by Sonni Cooper - the author of Black Fire. Sure, they're Star Trek fan novels... but so what? Sonni Cooper's writing entertains me, and I've met her. She's a very nice lady, with a wicked sense of humor.
Absolutely nothing wrong with a fan novel at all, which is my whole point. Why does the demonisation of fan fiction continue?

We've all read some stuff that the author enjoyed making but, objectively, was painful or ludicrous to read. Offer this kind of author critique and nine times out of ten he'll ignore you: he did it for his own enjoyment so he's not really interested in what you think about it.

However this is more than balanced by the number of fan writers who are interested in entertaining you and are trying to improve their work. The best of this work is comparable with professional offerings.

My point has always been that fan fiction is a legitimate, fun way of practising writing. Just as every comic book artist probably started by scribbling Marvel super heroes in the margin of his Maths book, I see nothing wrong with encouraging people to start off writing by expanding on something they love.

To some, fan fiction is an end in itself - they are happy to keep their writing as a hobby. The most common scenario here is the writer who loathes the direction that canon has gone and wants to correct it with their own work.

You can't tell me that Hemingway sprang fully formed from the foam like Venus on the half-shell!

K

PS - Are the 'zines you're browsing online?
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Old August 5 2012, 12:14 PM   #9
Timewalker
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Re: Fan Fiction to Indie: Would you? Could you?

Kirok_of_LStok wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
I just scored a couple of fan novels written by Sonni Cooper - the author of Black Fire. Sure, they're Star Trek fan novels... but so what? Sonni Cooper's writing entertains me, and I've met her. She's a very nice lady, with a wicked sense of humor.
Absolutely nothing wrong with a fan novel at all, which is my whole point. Why does the demonisation of fan fiction continue?

We've all read some stuff that the author enjoyed making but, objectively, was painful or ludicrous to read. Offer this kind of author critique and nine times out of ten he'll ignore you: he did it for his own enjoyment so he's not really interested in what you think about it.

However this is more than balanced by the number of fan writers who are interested in entertaining you and are trying to improve their work. The best of this work is comparable with professional offerings.

My point has always been that fan fiction is a legitimate, fun way of practising writing. Just as every comic book artist probably started by scribbling Marvel super heroes in the margin of his Maths book, I see nothing wrong with encouraging people to start off writing by expanding on something they love.

To some, fan fiction is an end in itself - they are happy to keep their writing as a hobby. The most common scenario here is the writer who loathes the direction that canon has gone and wants to correct it with their own work.

You can't tell me that Hemingway sprang fully formed from the foam like Venus on the half-shell!

K

PS - Are the 'zines you're browsing online?
The Sonni Cooper ones are (or were, as I just bought them) on eBay. There are some that are available online now that previously were only available in print form. So it's not necessary to pay $$$ for them if you only want to read the stories and aren't interested in the illustrations, poetry, letters, and other extras. Be warned, though - some of them include slash stories, so if you don't like gay/lesbian/bi relationships, don't access those sites.

Are there any particular kinds of ST fanfic you like?
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Old August 5 2012, 01:40 PM   #10
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Re: Fan Fiction to Indie: Would you? Could you?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
The Sonni Cooper ones are (or were, as I just bought them) on eBay. There are some that are available online now that previously were only available in print form. So it's not necessary to pay $$$ for them if you only want to read the stories and aren't interested in the illustrations, poetry, letters, and other extras. Be warned, though - some of them include slash stories, so if you don't like gay/lesbian/bi relationships, don't access those sites.

Are there any particular kinds of ST fanfic you like?
Just followed up on that which led me to a GREAT article by Jacqueline Lichtenberg on the Fanlore page about the fanzine Infinite Diversity...
The point here is that Trekzine production requires just as much group effort from seasoned pros as from fen, as does sf-'zine work, and ultimately is the same as professional market work. The only difference is in CONTENT not skill. If you master Trek writing, you CAN go pro in any other field you want, simply by learning a new set of rules for what the product must look like. Don't be dismayed. The trekzine field is not being dominated by pros these days, but rather the reverse is happening. The pro-sf/ST market is becoming dominated by FANS - for once a fan always a fan.
Am I wrong in thinking that the days of this professional acceptance of fan fiction are in the past? I would love to be proven wrong.

What do I read? I publish fan fiction online as TrekUnited Publishing so my reading is spoiled by having to speed scan pages for soft returns and change of font at the same time! This is especially annoying because I like what we publish and although I promise myself i will come back and read this sometime I rarely get the chance!

Short stories suit me best, but it has to have a balance between engaging characters and a significant plot - too much plot makes it space opera and not enough makes it talking heads. I particularly like clever stories that have a "twist in the tail" - something with the ending that makes you look back over the story and go, "ooooh! So that's why...!"

I like most eras because they all have great characters and open opportunities for extending the canon although I have a soft spot for TOS and Enterprise in particular. I can enjoy a story with OC's but this takes skill to build characters that are unique yet fit in canon, I can occasionally enjoy an alternate universe or a crossover but these are probably the hardest to get right.

K
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Old August 5 2012, 02:26 PM   #11
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Re: Fan Fiction to Indie: Would you? Could you?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
If it worked for Marion Zimmer Bradley and her Darkover fans (Bradley's earliest fanfic efforts are based on stories she read by C.L. Moore and Henry Kuttner), why wouldn't it work for Trek fans?

Where do you think some of the best Trek authors got their early writers' training, anyway? Diane Duane got her start in fanfic. So did many others. And now they're professional writers - who have at times used earlier material and changed out the fanfic elements.

It wouldn't have taken Harlan Ellison very much rewriting to make City on the Edge of Forever into a non-Trek story, or even screenplay.
Bingo.

Hell, people have been rethinking stories forever. I have no doubt some Greek was listening to Homer reciting The Iliad and thinking, what if Helen and Achilles were 'shipped?

People will always think of the "what if" scenario. We just write that stuff down, and present it to others. And in the meantime, it's a great way to develop chops.
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Old August 5 2012, 04:54 PM   #12
Timewalker
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Re: Fan Fiction to Indie: Would you? Could you?

Kirok_of_LStok wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
The Sonni Cooper ones are (or were, as I just bought them) on eBay. There are some that are available online now that previously were only available in print form. So it's not necessary to pay $$$ for them if you only want to read the stories and aren't interested in the illustrations, poetry, letters, and other extras. Be warned, though - some of them include slash stories, so if you don't like gay/lesbian/bi relationships, don't access those sites.

Are there any particular kinds of ST fanfic you like?
Just followed up on that which led me to a GREAT article by Jacqueline Lichtenberg on the Fanlore page about the fanzine Infinite Diversity...
The point here is that Trekzine production requires just as much group effort from seasoned pros as from fen, as does sf-'zine work, and ultimately is the same as professional market work. The only difference is in CONTENT not skill. If you master Trek writing, you CAN go pro in any other field you want, simply by learning a new set of rules for what the product must look like. Don't be dismayed. The trekzine field is not being dominated by pros these days, but rather the reverse is happening. The pro-sf/ST market is becoming dominated by FANS - for once a fan always a fan.
Woot! She did go ahead with "Doppelganger"!

Back in 1983 (or 1984? I'd have to check) I went to a con called Con-Version, in Calgary. The Guests of Honor were Bjo Trimble and Sonni Cooper. I remember the Sunday afternoon of that convention quite clearly... I was already ecstatic because I'd found a hardcover copy of The Darkover Concordance in absolutely *beautiful* condition in the dealers' room AND a couple of really nice pieces of artwork. I went to find my roommates, and discovered them sitting with Sonni Cooper, who was chatting about Black Fire and signing autographs. So I got my copy of her book autographed, and she told us about this other novel she was writing, and that she really hoped would be acceptable; the only problem was that it involved RL people as characters, and getting all those releases and permissions signed would be difficult... She read a chapter of it to us, and damn, it was funny! I'm not surprised that it never got professionally published, as it would have been a lawyer's nightmare. I'm glad it got published somewhere.

Am I wrong in thinking that the days of this professional acceptance of fan fiction are in the past? I would love to be proven wrong.
I think it really depends on the original author/producer's outlook. George Lucas doesn't mind Star Wars fanfic; from what I understand, he only draws the line at X-rated stuff. And if anybody tries to infringe on his copyrights, of course.

Contrast that with the current holders of the copyrights to Dune; they are so utterly paranoid/greedy, it's almost impossible to do any fan projects beyond fanfic they don't know about. A group of Spanish fans did an amateur film production of Dune - purely as a labor of love, never expected or wanted to make so much as a penny off it. They posted the trailer on YouTube, and were promptly threatened with all kinds of trouble unless they took it down and ceased all further production. The fans literally begged Kevin J. Anderson and Brian Herbert to reconsider, but nope - I've seen photos and production sketches of some of the characters and costumes, but by the time I even knew about the trailer, it had been taken down. I can only hope these fans turned their talents to other productions, because from what I did see, they did a wonderful job with Dune.

Marion Zimmer Bradley's estate is another entity that hammers anybody who tries to publish Darkover fanfic these days. It wasn't always so; she used to actively encourage people to write in her universe(s). But all it took was one fan who wrote a story that MZB read - that was too similar to something MZB was already writing. The fan demanded co-author credit (and $$$$$)... and things got very nasty. The book was never written, which is a damn shame; it's one that would have filled in a part of the series that a lot of people would have loved to read. But after this incident, MZB demanded that no more Darkover fanfic would be tolerated, and if anybody had any stories sitting in a desk drawer at home, we were to either destroy them or rewrite them so they bore no resemblance at all to Darkover. Naturally I mentally told her where she could stuff her (and her estate's) demands on what I have in my desk drawers... but I also keep my Darkover fan stuff to myself, not wishing to incur The Wrath Of Marion Zimmer Bradley's Lawyers. Oddly enough they don't seem to mind the proliferation of Avalon fanfics all over the 'Net, and that series is still in progress!

What do I read? I publish fan fiction online as TrekUnited Publishing so my reading is spoiled by having to speed scan pages for soft returns and change of font at the same time! This is especially annoying because I like what we publish and although I promise myself i will come back and read this sometime I rarely get the chance!

Short stories suit me best, but it has to have a balance between engaging characters and a significant plot - too much plot makes it space opera and not enough makes it talking heads. I particularly like clever stories that have a "twist in the tail" - something with the ending that makes you look back over the story and go, "ooooh! So that's why...!"

I like most eras because they all have great characters and open opportunities for extending the canon although I have a soft spot for TOS and Enterprise in particular. I can enjoy a story with OC's but this takes skill to build characters that are unique yet fit in canon, I can occasionally enjoy an alternate universe or a crossover but these are probably the hardest to get right.

K
I get my online fanfic fix at fanfiction.net, for the most part. I read mostly Voyager stories, although I recently found a terrific one in the TNG section about Tasha Yar's Academy years. I read very little DS9 fanfic, as that was never one of my favorite kinds of ST. As for Enterprise... I honestly can't stand that series. I never even saw the last couple of seasons - just couldn't stand it at all.

Alternate universes are fun, but definitely a challenge. As I said before in another thread, I'm currently writing a crossover between Sliders and The Handmaid's Tale. Juggling TEN different Sliders characters (the prime ones and their doubles) plus several Handmaid's Tale characters is the most complex fanfic I've ever tried - but judging by the results so far, I think I'll be able to pull it off. Try balancing a Sliders-type story with its requisite elements and characterizations with Margaret Atwood's writing style... the trick is not to let one get absorbed into the other and take over.

jespah wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
If it worked for Marion Zimmer Bradley and her Darkover fans (Bradley's earliest fanfic efforts are based on stories she read by C.L. Moore and Henry Kuttner), why wouldn't it work for Trek fans?

Where do you think some of the best Trek authors got their early writers' training, anyway? Diane Duane got her start in fanfic. So did many others. And now they're professional writers - who have at times used earlier material and changed out the fanfic elements.

It wouldn't have taken Harlan Ellison very much rewriting to make City on the Edge of Forever into a non-Trek story, or even screenplay.
Bingo.

Hell, people have been rethinking stories forever. I have no doubt some Greek was listening to Homer reciting The Iliad and thinking, what if Helen and Achilles were 'shipped?

People will always think of the "what if" scenario. We just write that stuff down, and present it to others. And in the meantime, it's a great way to develop chops.
Yikes - this reminds me of all the "what if" introductions found in the Tudors section of fanfiction.net. Some of the pairings are utterly beyond bizarre - and so few of the authors can actually make them work in a coherent story.
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Old August 5 2012, 06:54 PM   #13
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Re: Fan Fiction to Indie: Would you? Could you?

Well, to be sure. But people think of it, and write it down.

And - ENT! - The last two seasons were far superior. Sorry you missed 'em.
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Old August 5 2012, 09:11 PM   #14
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Re: Fan Fiction to Indie: Would you? Could you?

jespah wrote: View Post
And - ENT! - The last two seasons were far superior. Sorry you missed 'em.
Sorry, I just can't make myself do it. But I do like Porthos (the ONLY Enterprise character I liked) - just read your story about how he saves the day by biting the diplomatic guest and he thinks Archer is even better than CHEESE!

Cute.
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Old August 5 2012, 11:25 PM   #15
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Re: Fan Fiction to Indie: Would you? Could you?

Ha, thanks! You're very kind.
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