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 The Trek BBS Cause and Effect

 The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

 August 16 2012, 10:53 AM #31 Tiberius Commodore Re: Cause and Effect I don't think the logic in this episode is as tricky as it appears. Let's assume that each loop for the Enterprise lasts 2 days, just for the sake of argument. From the D's POV, it starts with the poker game, Sickbay calls, Bev goes to sleep and hears voices, and in the morning they have the collision. The collision resets everything back to the beginning. For the Bozeman's point of view, it would start before they travel through time. A bunch of stuff would happen, culminating with the Bozeman being drawn through the wibbly wobbly time wimey thing and colliding with the Enterprise. This resets the loop, sending the Bozeman back to the beginning - 80 years ago (or however long ago it was). But it would take the same length of time for the Bozeman to go through one entire loop as it did for the Enterprise. The only difference is that since the events that happened to the Bozeman included a trip forward through time, the Bozeman's loop spans a longer period of time that the Enterprise's loop. But the two loops (the E's and the B's) both take the same length of time, and since we saw the Bozeman in each of the E's loop, then the Bozeman would have been through the loop the same number of times as the E. __________________
August 16 2012, 11:11 AM   #32
Timo

Re: Cause and Effect

 But it would take the same length of time for the Bozeman to go through one entire loop as it did for the Enterprise.
Why? There's no inherent need for this as such, as the loop is taking place in the 24th century. The number of loops needs to be the same, but the length need not, as the Bozeman isn't within the "zone of influence" of the loop for most of the time the E-D is. It would be a bit different if the Bozeman were a regular starship from the 24th century...

As for Riker's decision not to turn back, it's certainly illogical. It's also somewhat consistent for his character to suggest such weird things - and for Picard to accept Riker's recommendation over that of others in situations where there is no objective order of preference. Which makes it a bit odd that Picard initially favors Data's recommendation in dealing with the collision itself!

Timo Saloniemi

 August 16 2012, 11:27 AM #33 King Daniel Into Darkness Admiral     Location: England Re: Cause and Effect What actually caused the time loop? Was it the cloudy thing which brought Bozeman to the future? Was it the force of Enterprise exploding as Geordi suggested (THERE's a handy reload button if the force of a starship exploding can do that!)? or the explosion inside the cloudy thing? Maybe the Guardian got hiccups? __________________ Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
 August 16 2012, 11:38 AM #34 Timo Admiral Re: Cause and Effect The neatest package would be a combination of the force of the explosion with a local phenomenon. In "Yesterday's Enterprise" it also appeared that mere fierce firefight could open a temporal rift - but perhaps only under specific rare circumstances that cannot be easily reproduced or even identified? One'd think there would be studies afterward. But one'd think there would have been studies back when the Bozeman disappeared already (just three weeks away from civilization, so basically in an area that would have to be secured against future accidents of the sort). And they seem to have come up with nothing, as our E-D heroes had no archived speculation to build on. Timo Saloniemi
 August 16 2012, 11:51 AM #35 Trekker4747 Out there, somewhere...     Location: Kansas City Re: Cause and Effect Ok, let's get this one out of the way: The Enterprise is, well, fucking huge! It's almost half a mile long, and as tall at 40+ story building having a mass of 4.5 million metric tons. It is, in fact, a "moving mountain." Without pulling out my blueprints, doing some measuring and math I can't say for sure; but I'm guessing that the amount of air inside the main shuttlebay wouldn't be nearly enough to move the ship in the significant way we see in the episode. Especially since the air would also have to overcome the ship's own inertia and momentum it already had. And given the ship was without power and had no engines, it's unlikely any "mass reduction" systems were operating to allow for the explosive decompression to have a chance of doing something. Is there really more than 5 million tons of air inside the shuttlebay? A single 10x10 foot room has about 75 pounds of air in it early morning thinking/math tells me that... The shuttlebay would have to be damn big for the explosive force of it to have a chance at even nudging the Enterprise out of the way let alone making it quickly maneuver out of the way. __________________ Just because it's futuristic doesn't mean it's practical.
 August 16 2012, 11:58 AM #36 Timo Admiral Re: Cause and Effect ...Then again, when you factor in how supernaturally strong the blow-out of a small compartment's atmosphere is in "Disaster", perhaps there's something to Data's suggestion after all? I guess that we could speculate on the lines of there being enough power to open the rolling door by rolling it (as opposed to, say, detonating explosive bolts) - from which it would follow that there would be enough power and control to do tricks with artificial gravity, which is a notoriously low-power-consumption application (not to mention still working). Perhaps the air was not merely let to leak out, but was shoved out at significant nozzle velocity? Timo Saloniemi
August 16 2012, 12:15 PM   #37
Start Wreck
Fleet Captain

Re: Cause and Effect

 Trekker4747 wrote: An odd bit of "logic" occurs in this episode. It's suggested that they reverse course to prevent getting caught in the loop, Riker shoots this idea down saying it might be what gets them stuck in the first place. Ummm.. No, Commander. Since the first time through there was nothing to cause the Enterprise to reverse course it's not what causes it to get stuck in the loop. Reversing course would be the right thing to do.
Doesn't something very similar happen in Time Squared, where they decide to stay on course instead of divert? It certainly rings a bell.
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August 16 2012, 12:58 PM   #38
CommanderRaytas

Location: Jimmy Whispers and his fancy walkman
Re: Cause and Effect

T'Girl wrote:
 Cyke101 wrote: Captain Frasier: "How many years were we caught in that loop?" Picard: "About ninety years."
This joke made me think of something, the Enterprise Dee ended up out of sync with time by 17.3 days, and the crew started figuring thing out a few loops before and devised a way out.

The USS Boseman was in the loops for 90 fukking years, what kind of clown show did Captain Bateson have aboard his ship anyway?

I mean, I understand that the Enterprise Dee is the flagship, and best of the best, yap yap yap. But the Boseman is a Starfleet vessel, they couldn't do anything in 90 years?

They were probably already used to doing and saying the same thing every single day anyway, so it didn't make any difference....? Your guess is as good as mine.
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August 16 2012, 03:18 PM   #39
Trekker4747
Out there, somewhere...

Location: Kansas City
Re: Cause and Effect

 Timo wrote: ...Then again, when you factor in how supernaturally strong the blow-out of a small compartment's atmosphere is in "Disaster", perhaps there's something to Data's suggestion after all? I guess that we could speculate on the lines of there being enough power to open the rolling door by rolling it (as opposed to, say, detonating explosive bolts) - from which it would follow that there would be enough power and control to do tricks with artificial gravity, which is a notoriously low-power-consumption application (not to mention still working). Perhaps the air was not merely let to leak out, but was shoved out at significant nozzle velocity? Timo Saloniemi
Still there needs to be enough force to move the ship. And it would take a very large volume of air to shift a 5 million ton mass. In "Disaster", sure, we see it's a large volume of air with a lot of force. But, not so strong that Beverly and Geordi couldn't stay in the room by clinging to a railing.
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 August 16 2012, 03:22 PM #40 Timo Admiral Re: Cause and Effect Merely a very large mass of air, actually, to give the desired momentum. Or a moderate mass of air at high velocity, with the same end result. Perhaps AG technology gave the existing volume a bit of extra mass or speed or both? The odd thing is, why did Picard not follow both suggestions? There was no explicit reason to only do one and not both... Timo Saloniemi
 August 16 2012, 04:22 PM #41 Photoman15 Fleet Captain     Location: The sunny shores of Trenzalore Re: Cause and Effect Any depressurization could move the Enterprise. It weighs NOTHING in space. __________________ I refuse to put a signature here! oh...uh...ummm
 August 16 2012, 04:27 PM #42 Timo Admiral Re: Cause and Effect Physics doesn't work that way. It's just as difficult to push the Enterprise in space as it would be to push the Queen Mary 2 in an ocean, despite both indeed "weighing nothing". Weight is irrelevant; mass is everything. Timo Saloniemi
 August 16 2012, 04:34 PM #43 Photoman15 Fleet Captain     Location: The sunny shores of Trenzalore Re: Cause and Effect But the force would push against the inside walls and create a "thrust" that "could" move the ship. __________________ I refuse to put a signature here! oh...uh...ummm
 August 16 2012, 04:57 PM #44 Timo Admiral Re: Cause and Effect Right. And? It would still have to push a mass from immobility into motion, which takes F=ma amount of force. If force F is small, it can only give a tiny little acceleration a to the constant mass m. That regardless of whether the ship is floating in space or in water. (Although there'd be a tad less friction in space, admittedly.) Timo Saloniemi
August 16 2012, 05:46 PM   #45
Trekker4747
Out there, somewhere...

Location: Kansas City
Re: Cause and Effect

 Photoman15 wrote: Any depressurization could move the Enterprise. It weighs NOTHING in space.
It still has mass, mass that must be moved. In order to move a greater amount of mass is needed, or something that expel a greater amount of mass or force. And a room full of air just isn't, I believe, going to have enough mass or force to move the ship. The Enterprise is still a 5 million ton hunk of mass and it's going to take that much mass (or a small amount of mass with a large amount of acceleration) to move it.

It might "weigh nothing" in space but that doesn't mean that Data could have gotten out of the ship and simply pushed it out of the way, he'd still need to push it with enough force to overcome the Enterprise's mass.

So I pulled out the blueprints and took measurements of the Enterprise main shuttle bay.

I ignored the elliptical shape of the room and well as the approach area made by the door vestibule. So I simply measured the widest points of the length and width of the room. Again ignoring that the inside of the room has outcroppings and structural obstructions.

At the wides point the shuttlebay on it's lowest deck (where the door is, not counting the "hangar" below the shuttlebay) is 17cm by 11cm which in the scale of the blueprints is 425 feet by 275 feet. The shuttlebay is two decks high, while the upper area is likely slightly smaller we'll ignore that.

I'm going to assume a standard "deck height" of 10 feet (the ship's height by it's number of decks mostly supports this) so that'd given everything I've fudged each level of the shuttlebay is 425ft x 275ft x 10ft. Or 1.17 million cubic feet. Times two for 2.34 million cubic feet of space inside the main shuttlebay. And, again, that's likely on the high-end given the number fudging I've done.

So 2.34 million cubic feet of space times 75 pounds of air per cubic foot gets us to 175 million pounds of air, or 87,750 tons of air. So we would need about 57 shuttlebays worth of air in that space to have enough force to just to overcome the mass of the ship and maybe nudge it out of the way.

(Incidentally, the episode suggests the air in the shuttlebay was enough to move the bulk of the ship out of the way but not enough to toss some shuttlecraft out the door. But we can probably assume the shuttlecraft had magnetic or tractor "tiedowns" in place to prevent this.)
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