RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,643
Posts: 5,427,778
Members: 24,811
Currently online: 449
Newest member: Damix

TrekToday headlines

Trek Messenger Bag
By: T'Bonz on Sep 18

Star Trek Live In Concert In Australia
By: T'Bonz on Sep 18

IDW Publishing December Trek Comics
By: T'Bonz on Sep 17

September Loot Crate Features Trek Surprise
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

USS Enterprise Miniature Out For Refit
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Star Trek/Planet of the Apes Comic Crossover
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Trek 3 Shooting Next Spring?
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Star Trek: Alien Domain Game Announced
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Red Shirt Diaries Episode Three
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Made Out Of Mudd Photonovel
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 29 2012, 07:24 PM   #1
Gil T.Azell
Rear Admiral
 
Gil T.Azell's Avatar
 
Location: On the Left Coast
Mirror Mirror question..

Well watching this the other day I wondered (again) why the Halkan's in the mirror mirror-universe weren't savage as well?
__________________
When you walk into a building soaking wet and someone asks you if it is raining then just smile and answer:"No, I just took my fish for a walk!"
Gil T.Azell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 29 2012, 07:35 PM   #2
Gary Mitchell
Admiral
 
Gary Mitchell's Avatar
 
Location: ¯\_(°·O)_/¯ Florida
Re: Mirror Mirror question..

The mirror Halkans were notorious for giving each other wedgies, indian burns and noogies. That's why they looked the way they did. They just didn't show it on camera.
__________________
Born when she kissed me, died when she left me, lived whilst she loved me.
Gary Mitchell is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 29 2012, 08:06 PM   #3
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: Mirror Mirror question..

Because it was "what if the Federation was evil?" not the "what if EVERYONE was evil?" later MU stories degenerated into.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 30 2012, 12:37 AM   #4
Matt S
Lieutenant
 
Matt S's Avatar
 
Re: Mirror Mirror question..

Oh, I am sure that the writers could've come up with some cheesey reasoning as to why only our fav crew changed, but that wasn't the point of the ep!
Matt S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 2 2012, 04:16 PM   #5
Gary7
Rear Admiral
 
Gary7's Avatar
 
Location: Near Manhattan ··· in an alternate reality
Re: Mirror Mirror question..

"Mirror, Mirror" was meant to infer a reflection, where perception is reversed. But it doesn't necessarily mean polar opposites. If it did mean that then the Federation might not have existed at all, and Earth winds up being a weak minion of some vast empire run by the Halkans.
__________________
Remembering Ensign Mallory.
Gary7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 2 2012, 04:23 PM   #6
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Mirror Mirror question..

The Mirror Universe wasn't some magic cartoon realm where everything is backwards. That's taking the title too literally and Star Trek as a whole too fancifully. It was simply an alternate timeline where human history turned out differently and produced an empire instead of a federation. After all, we saw that Spock was basically a decent man in both realities; it's just that the circumstances of the world he inhabited had forced him to become more ruthless to survive. It was really just humanity that was more savage and ruthless.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 2 2012, 04:48 PM   #7
Mr. Laser Beam
Fleet Admiral
 
Mr. Laser Beam's Avatar
 
Location: The visitor's bullpen
View Mr. Laser Beam's Twitter Profile
Re: Mirror Mirror question..

Christopher wrote: View Post
After all, we saw that Spock was basically a decent man in both realities; it's just that the circumstances of the world he inhabited had forced him to become more ruthless to survive.
Same goes for Maxwell/Maximilian Forrest in ENT.

(sorry, just had to throw that in)
__________________
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
Mr. Laser Beam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 2 2012, 07:27 PM   #8
TrickyDickie
Commodore
 
Re: Mirror Mirror question..

Christopher wrote: View Post
The Mirror Universe wasn't some magic cartoon realm where everything is backwards.
Hey, 'The Counter-Clock Incident' from TAS wasn't that bad.

Seriously though, it's a good point that 'mirror' in the Trek universes is really synonymous with 'parallel'....where the variables are different but not necessarily perfectly opposite.

Along that theme, I'd like to lend support to the non-Trek novel 'Dante's Equation' by Jane Jensen. While the 'how' of moving between parallel universes is a bit hollywoodish, it's still a thought-provoking and entertaining story.
TrickyDickie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 7 2012, 06:49 PM   #9
RandyS
Vice Admiral
 
RandyS's Avatar
 
Location: Randyland
View RandyS's Twitter Profile
Re: Mirror Mirror question..

Gil T.Azell wrote: View Post
Well watching this the other day I wondered (again) why the Halkan's in the mirror mirror-universe weren't savage as well?
The point of that episode was differences in Humans, not everybody in the universe. That's why the DS9 follow-ups are hated (by most fans, not by me), because they took the concept of the "mirror universe" too literally.
RandyS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 7 2012, 07:50 PM   #10
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Mirror Mirror question..

TrickyDickie wrote: View Post
Hey, 'The Counter-Clock Incident' from TAS wasn't that bad.
Oh-h-h-h, yes, it is.


Seriously though, it's a good point that 'mirror' in the Trek universes is really synonymous with 'parallel'....where the variables are different but not necessarily perfectly opposite.
Well, it's not actually called "the Mirror Universe" within the Trek universe. That's our term for it in real life based on the title of the episode that introduced it. In-story it's always called either a parallel universe or alternate universe, interchangeably (although in DS9: "Crossover" neither term is used, with the universes simply being referred to as "sides"). So we shouldn't take the "Mirror" thing too literally. It's just a metaphor. (It was probably The Star Trek Concordance that introduced and popularized the term "Mirror universe" for that alternate reality, though that book often drew on terminology used in scripts and production memos, so it could've originated there.)


RandyS wrote: View Post
The point of that episode was differences in Humans, not everybody in the universe. That's why the DS9 follow-ups are hated (by most fans, not by me), because they took the concept of the "mirror universe" too literally.
Not at all. The differences in the DS9 era all grow out of the change in humanity. Because the Terran Empire was a brutal dictatorship, it drove the Klingons and Cardassians to unite against it. The Klingons and Cardassians aren't really very different in the two universes; they're just more exaggerated in the MU, perhaps because as successful conquerors they've been freer to indulge their worst impulses, or perhaps because decades of fighting the fierce Terrans made them fiercer in response. And since the Terrans occupied Bajor, the Bajorans joined with the Empire's enemies to win their liberation. They then rose to become a major partner in the alliance they joined, much as they've subsequently done in the Prime Universe, just sooner because they were liberated sooner.

And the differences in the individual characters can be explained simply by their different upbringing and experiences, growing up in a society where the tough and ruthless thrive and the compassionate and honest are ground under.

Anyway, who says "most fans" hate the DS9 mirror episodes? I've never heard any suggestion of that before. And what complaints I have heard haven't been about overly literal mirroring, because clearly that hasn't been the case (if it were, the Klingons and Cardassians would be pacifists, Garak would be the galaxy's most honest man, etc.).
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 7 2012, 08:09 PM   #11
RandyS
Vice Admiral
 
RandyS's Avatar
 
Location: Randyland
View RandyS's Twitter Profile
Re: Mirror Mirror question..

Christopher wrote: View Post


RandyS wrote: View Post
The point of that episode was differences in Humans, not everybody in the universe. That's why the DS9 follow-ups are hated (by most fans, not by me), because they took the concept of the "mirror universe" too literally.
Not at all. The differences in the DS9 era all grow out of the change in humanity. Because the Terran Empire was a brutal dictatorship, it drove the Klingons and Cardassians to unite against it. The Klingons and Cardassians aren't really very different in the two universes; they're just more exaggerated in the MU, perhaps because as successful conquerors they've been freer to indulge their worst impulses, or perhaps because decades of fighting the fierce Terrans made them fiercer in response. And since the Terrans occupied Bajor, the Bajorans joined with the Empire's enemies to win their liberation. They then rose to become a major partner in the alliance they joined, much as they've subsequently done in the Prime Universe, just sooner because they were liberated sooner.

And the differences in the individual characters can be explained simply by their different upbringing and experiences, growing up in a society where the tough and ruthless thrive and the compassionate and honest are ground under.

Anyway, who says "most fans" hate the DS9 mirror episodes? I've never heard any suggestion of that before. And what complaints I have heard haven't been about overly literal mirroring, because clearly that hasn't been the case (if it were, the Klingons and Cardassians would be pacifists, Garak would be the galaxy's most honest man, etc.).
Just check the comments by other fans. The comments made toward the DS9 MU episodes, as well as the ENTERPRISE two parter are typically negative. Not always, because nothing is an absolute, but in general.

It's not an opinion that I share because my favorite type of sci-fi story is the "parrallel universe" concept, weither it's Star Trek centered or not, but when the subject of discussion is the MU episodes, nine times out of ten, the response toward the DS9 episodes are negative.

At least, that's what I've seen.
RandyS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 7 2012, 08:21 PM   #12
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Mirror Mirror question..

RandyS wrote: View Post
Just check the comments by other fans. The comments made toward the DS9 MU episodes, as well as the ENTERPRISE two parter are typically negative.
In what context? The Internet? There's always a minority of complainers who make a disproportionate amount of noise and create the impression that there's widespread hatred, but if you actually count up the names it generally amounts to a handful of people voicing the same complaints over and over again. As a rule, people are more motivated to speak out on something they disapprove of than something they approve of, while those who are neutral have no incentive to say much at all. So the negative side tends to be overrepresented in online comments, letters to newspapers and magazines, etc. The negative side doesn't outnumber the positive or neutral groups, it just out-talks them.

Case in point -- if you went by the comments on this BBS alone, you'd think that the 2009 Star Trek movie was the most hated one of all, but in fact it's the most popular one of all, the most critically acclaimed one of all, and one of the most financially successful ones of all.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 7 2012, 10:56 PM   #13
1001001
Putting the F-U Back in FUN!
 
1001001's Avatar
 
Location: People's Gaypublic of Drugafornia
Re: Mirror Mirror question..

RandyS wrote: View Post
Just check the comments by other fans. The comments made toward the DS9 MU episodes, as well as the ENTERPRISE two parter are typically negative. Not always, because nothing is an absolute, but in general.
While I did not particularly like the DS9 MU episodes (in fact I didn't like DS9 all that much), I thought In a Mirror, Darkly was brilliant! The changes to the opening credits were very clever and well done, IMHO.
__________________
“There is a cult of ignorance in the United States...The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge'.” - Isaac Asimov
1001001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 7 2012, 11:23 PM   #14
CorporalCaptain
Admiral
 
CorporalCaptain's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: Mirror Mirror question..

I suspect that the actual answer to the question is for literary reasons rather than in-universe reasons.

Consider the exchange between Kirk and Tharn in the teaser [http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/39.htm]:

THARN: We believe what you say, Captain Kirk, but our position has not altered. The Halkan Council cannot permit your Federation to mine dilithium crystals on our planet.

KIRK: We have shown the council historical proof that our missions are peaceful.

THARN: We accept that your Federation is benevolent at present, but the future is always in question. Our dilithium crystals represent awesome power. Wrongful use of that power, even to the extent of the taking of one life, would violate our history of total peace. To prevent that, we would die, Captain. As a race, if necessary.

KIRK: I admire your ethics and hope to prove ours. Kirk to Enterprise.

[...]

KIRK: When may we resume discussion?

THARN: The council will meditate further, but do not be hopeful of any change. Captain, you do have the might to force the crystals from us, of course.

KIRK: But we won't. Consider that. Enterprise. Transporter room, energise.
It's basically a setup to the question, as KingDaniel put it, of, what if the Federation were evil?

The Halkans are the fixed point in the story around which the reflection occurs, in order to explore the conscience of the Federation. You can't explore the question of whether the Federation would succumb to the temptation to plunder, without keeping the Halkans the same in both universes. At least not as straightforwardly as a simple compare-and-contrast, to see how the Federations in the two universes react differently to the same situation.
__________________
John
CorporalCaptain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 8 2012, 08:26 AM   #15
RPJOB
Commander
 
RPJOB's Avatar
 
Re: Mirror Mirror question..

And yet in Requiem for Methuselah Kirk orders phasers locked onto Flint's home when he refuses to give him the ryetalyn. Flint is just as independent as the Halkans are yet Kirk is willing to let Flint believe that he'll be killed if he doesn't had it over.

On Eminiar VII Ambassador Fox, with Kirk backing him up, intends to get a treaty port established for the Federation. A treaty port is one that is basically negotiated while the weaker party is staring down the barrel of a gun. It's how the British ended up running Hong Kong after the Opium Wars, a large scale operation to smuggle drugs into China in order to disrupt the government.

If the Federation was suffering a critical shortage of Dilithium I would imagine that the negotiations with the Halkans would have faced a much less friendly negotiation with Starfleet.
RPJOB is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:37 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.