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Old August 20 2014, 02:21 AM   #856
Alidar Jarok
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Here's an example from A Midsummer Night's Dream (link). You can compare the "translation" on the right, which seems to basically just suck the fun out of it while changing little else:

If we shadows have offended,
Think but this, and all is mended—
That you have but slumbered here
While these visions did appear.
And this weak and idle theme,
No more yielding but a dream,
Gentles, do not reprehend.
If you pardon, we will mend.
And, as I am an honest Puck,
If we have unearned luck
Now to ’scape the serpent’s tongue,
We will make amends ere long.
Else the Puck a liar call.
So good night unto you all.
Give me your hands if we be friends,
And Robin shall restore amends.
I always found that relatively straight forward. The only thing my internet spellcheck doesn't think are words is 'scape, but it's pretty obviously escape. It's poetic, of course. "Escape the serpent's tongue" is a reference to the criticisms from the crowd (booing or hissing if we want to be literal). Read the translation on the right if you must but then go back and see if you can figure out the left. I promise it's quite readable and clearly modern English.
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Old August 20 2014, 02:40 AM   #857
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Unless Tony's going to spouting more psuedo Shakespeare in The Age Of Ultron I don't see what this has to with the movie.
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Old August 20 2014, 02:50 AM   #858
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Eh, it's a slow news day. We were talking about Joss Whedon.
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Old August 20 2014, 03:28 AM   #859
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I'll admit, when I first started reading Shakespeare, I had trouble with it, but I had to read it for drama class at school so I had to stick with it, and once I got used to it I really liked it.
If you have trouble, just stick with it, you'll get used to it eventually. And like the others said, it is a lot easier to understand it when it's being performed, than reading it.
Here's a clip from the Joss Whedon Much Ado.
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Old August 20 2014, 03:30 AM   #860
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It takes me a little bit to get into "Shakespeare mode" when I haven't heard it in a while, but once I've flipped the switch on it works fine for me. It's like listening to Bob Dylan.
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Old August 20 2014, 04:43 AM   #861
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Reading Shakespeare is significantly more difficult that watching it. When you have actors speaking the lines in the context of a scene, it's amazing how easy it is to comprehend. It might take a few minutes to get used to it, but once you are, it can be incredibly entertaining (particularly his comedies).
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Old August 20 2014, 05:52 AM   #862
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Yeah. Honestly, I was amazed how much I enjoyed it once I got used it.
And now that I've seen that clip from Much Ado, I'm going to have to finally watch the whole movie sometime soon.
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Old August 20 2014, 06:24 AM   #863
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Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
Here's an example from A Midsummer Night's Dream (link). You can compare the "translation" on the right, which seems to basically just suck the fun out of it while changing little else:

I always found that relatively straight forward. The only thing my internet spellcheck doesn't think are words is 'scape, but it's pretty obviously escape. It's poetic, of course. "Escape the serpent's tongue" is a reference to the criticisms from the crowd (booing or hissing if we want to be literal). Read the translation on the right if you must but then go back and see if you can figure out the left. I promise it's quite readable and clearly modern English.
Well, I tried to read just the left part (the part you quoted) before clicking on the link and looking at the translation. I had absolutely no idea what was going on. The translation was dry, but I actually understood what was happening, and I really don't get how the Shakespeare segment meant what it translated to at all (and that section seemed relatively tame). After a few minutes I can kind of see it, but at that rate it would take me half a year to figure out even part of one of Shakespeare's plays, and I'd probably only barely get the gist.

I also watched some of the Much Ado About Nothing clip. If I'd only seen the actors in that clip alone, i'd assume that Denisof and Acker have no chemistry or acting ability, which the TV show Angel definitely disproves. The scene was very awkward, and the actors were trying to perform lines that just don't work, and could be said a lot better in actual modern English. I also have no real idea what happened. Acker's character seemed mad at Denisof, but she wasn't clear why. There may have been some guy she disliked, and she might have wanted Denisof to do something about it, but exactly what that was I couldn't figure out. She may also have a cousin involved. Overall, it was a mess, and like I said before the acting was very awkward. I don't blame the actors, they're great, the material is just not great, almost like acting/performing (along with language) has changed in the last few centuries.

ts just too obtuse and confusing for me. Its written using a variation of english that is about as far away from our own as you can get without it being just a whole other language that just shares some words, and the lines when performed just make the actors come off as very stilted. I could watch a completely foreign film at get the gist of it quicker, and it probably wouldn't feel awkward like that clip did. To me, its just a way of doing things that should have been left in the past. Update the language to 2014 English, and I'd give it a watch/read. As it is, with reading Shakespeare i'd probably have a less frustrating time of it it if it was written in wingdings (but in modern style), and a movie would just be like watching a foreign film they didn't bother to translate.,
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Old August 20 2014, 11:24 AM   #864
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This is English as far away as you can get without it being a whole other language:



Shakespeare is often no worse than Australian in its strangeness.
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Old August 20 2014, 05:31 PM   #865
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Well, I can generally understand Australians, but every place has dialects that are hard to understand, but they're usually in specific areas. I could probably find places in the southern US with people I could barely understand, too. But, they'd still be easier to understand than stuff like

Hold, take my sword. There’s husbandry in heaven;
Their candles are all out. Take thee that too.
A heavy summons lies like lead upon me,
And yet I would not sleep. Merciful powers,
Restrain in me the cursèd thoughts that nature
Gives way to in repose.
or

Be innocent of the knowledge, dearest chuck,
Till thou applaud the deed. Come, seeling night,
Scarf up the tender eye of pitiful day
And with thy bloody and invisible hand
Cancel and tear to pieces that great bond
Which keeps me pale. Light thickens, and the crow
Makes wing to th' rooky wood.
Good things of day begin to droop and drowse;
Whiles night’s black agents to their preys do rouse.
Thou marvel’st at my words: but hold thee still.
Things bad begun make strong themselves by ill.
So, prithee, go with me.
Heck, I saw the translation of the second quote, and even the translation doesn't make much sense Its fine if people like it, I'm just saying that its got to take specific people, who are really into literary/performance history, to be able to translate that kind of language. If someone wanted to make a version the average person could understand, I bet they could translate it, but they haven't (I've always kind of assumed its some kind of snob thing, that if you can't understand it in the original klingon they don't want you to hear the story). Like I've said, if someone ever tries to make an adaptation for people that don't have the ability to translate a practically foreign language, I'd probably look at it. But its probably too much of a fancy person thing for that to happen, which is fine. While I'd be interested in seeing understandable adaptations of some of Shakespeare's stuff, its not like its something I'll really miss if it doesn't happen
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Old August 20 2014, 09:10 PM   #866
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kirk55555, could you please explain what you mean by modern English?
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Old August 20 2014, 09:26 PM   #867
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^It's what he talks.
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Old August 20 2014, 09:41 PM   #868
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Masiral wrote: View Post
kirk55555, could you please explain what you mean by modern English?
Well, its how we're talking now. I don't see how its hard to explain. Its how people speak and write English in modern times. I have no real idea when you'd say it "started", I mostly go by if I can easily understand what people wrote/said.

Or, to use Shakespeare as an example, no one in the real world in 2014 speaks like this

And can you by no drift of conference
Get from him why he puts on this confusion,
Grating so harshly all his days of quiet
With turbulent and dangerous lunacy?
Its that simple. Its the way people speak and write in the real world of 2014. I'd also say its any English that's easily understandable to average English speakers in 2014 without the person having to spend time deciphering what was said. There are various levels, of course. Some things are between Shakespeare and modern times. For example, I can understand what people like, say, ben franklin wrote, but its not exactly modern. Mark twain had the style of his time, but I'd say when it comes to understanding his work its probably what I'd classify as "modern" English.

Its not hard to get. If the average person, not Literary or Shakespeare snobs, can understand something without spending an inordinate amount of time deciphering ancient phrases and completely bonkers sentence structure, its probably more modern English. If the average person can read a line and understand it immediately, its probably modern English. There are exceptions, but its not hard to get.
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Old August 20 2014, 09:45 PM   #869
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No Fear Shakespeare sucks. I hate it. Like AJ said, it takes the fun out of the language. More importantly, it removes any room for interpretation. And that's the whole effing point.
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Old August 20 2014, 09:49 PM   #870
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Turtletrekker wrote: View Post
^It's what he talks.
Well, I haven't seen any of your posts read like

Oh, what a noble mind is here o'erthrown!—
The courtier’s, soldier’s, scholar’s, eye, tongue, sword,
Th' expectancy and rose of the fair state,
The glass of fashion and the mould of form,
Th' observed of all observers, quite, quite down!
And I, of ladies most deject and wretched,
That sucked the honey of his music vows,
Now see that noble and most sovereign reason
Like sweet bells jangled, out of tune and harsh;
That unmatched form and feature of blown youth
Blasted with ecstasy. Oh, woe is me,
T' have seen what I have seen, see what I see!
But, maybe you save those "real English" posts for forums I don't frequent

Seriously, its hilarious how people deny the fact that Shakespeare is very hard to understand for a lot of people, while speaking normal English themselves. If it was so easy or normal, why aren't you writing like him? Because NO ONE talks or write likes that anymore unless they are specifically trying to copy that style, because its not how people communicate in English nowadays.

Seriously, I'm done with this conversation. If I want Shakespeare I'll read stuff with modern writers adapt elements into their stories. I'm not saying you can't enjoy it, but pretending its something that is easily understood is ridiculous, and at this point I'm just getting beat up by Shakespeare snobs. I get it, you like your ancient plays. Good for you, I wish you nothing but happiness while enjoying your ancient plays.

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
No Fear Shakespeare sucks. I hate it. Like AJ said, it takes the fun out of the language. More importantly, it removes any room for interpretation. And that's the whole effing point.
Well, I personally prefer my reading to be pretty specific. what's the point of reading a story whose language is so obtuse that you have to interpret what the words on the page even mean? My only problem with No Fear Shakespeare is that it doesn't actually translate that well, because it tries to stick too close to the material, basically clearing up phrases but not really putting it in a modern format.
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