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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old August 4 2012, 11:20 PM   #1
Trek or Treat!
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credit for main title theme

The TNG credits list Jerry Goldsmith and Alexander Courage as creators of the main title theme.

The first eight bars or so use a melody originally composed by Courage for TOS, but if Iím not mistaken the arrangement is mostly James Hornerís. So why isnít he given credit?

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Old August 4 2012, 11:43 PM   #2
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Re: credit for main title theme

captrek wrote: View Post
The TNG credits list Jerry Goldsmith and Alexander Courage as creators of the main title theme.

The first eight bars or so use a melody originally composed by Courage for TOS, but if I’m not mistaken the arrangement is mostly James Horner’s. So why isn’t he given credit?
I could go into a studio and record a song by the Beatles, make my own unique arrangement, but even if someone else records what is clearly my version, the Beatles wrote the song and would get the credit.

That said, I don't think Hoener's arrangement was used. About the only similarity I see between the STII and TNG themes is that in both versions the opening fanfare is slower than it was in the original series.
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Old August 6 2012, 08:29 PM   #3
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Re: credit for main title theme

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
That said, I don't think Hoener's arrangement was used. About the only similarity I see between the STII and TNG themes is that in both versions the opening fanfare is slower than it was in the original series.
It seems to me that there are more similarities than that, but I'd like to hear the assessments of people more musically literate than I.
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Old August 6 2012, 08:58 PM   #4
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Re: credit for main title theme

Maybe it's because what is known as the TNG main theme is actually more or less the TMP theme.

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Old August 6 2012, 11:43 PM   #5
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Re: credit for main title theme

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Maybe it's because what is known as the TNG main theme is actually more or less the TMP theme.
Duh, but it starts with what sounds like Hornerís work, followed by an abbreviated version of Goldsmithís TMP theme.
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Old August 7 2012, 02:52 AM   #6
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Re: credit for main title theme

There is nothing in there that is attributable to Horner. You're talking about a superficial similarity between how Horner arranged Alexander Courage's fanfare -- not Horner's own work -- and how Dennis McCarthy arranged the same fanfare for use in the TNG theme. There's certainly nothing original of Horner's in there anywhere.
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Old August 7 2012, 06:25 PM   #7
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Re: credit for main title theme

^ This.
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Old August 7 2012, 06:26 PM   #8
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Re: credit for main title theme

To quote ST II, the OP proceeds from a false assumption.
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Old August 8 2012, 08:42 PM   #9
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Re: credit for main title theme

CoveTom wrote: View Post
There is nothing in there that is attributable to Horner. You're talking about a superficial similarity between how Horner arranged Alexander Courage's fanfare -- not Horner's own work -- and how Dennis McCarthy arranged the same fanfare for use in the TNG theme. There's certainly nothing original of Horner's in there anywhere.
Jerry Goldsmith did the TNG theme, Dennis McCarthy did the DSN theme (though I believe he did compose a theme for TNG that wasn't used in the end)
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Old August 8 2012, 08:52 PM   #10
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Re: credit for main title theme

MacLeod wrote: View Post
CoveTom wrote: View Post
There is nothing in there that is attributable to Horner. You're talking about a superficial similarity between how Horner arranged Alexander Courage's fanfare -- not Horner's own work -- and how Dennis McCarthy arranged the same fanfare for use in the TNG theme. There's certainly nothing original of Horner's in there anywhere.
Jerry Goldsmith did the TNG theme, Dennis McCarthy did the DSN theme (though I believe he did compose a theme for TNG that wasn't used in the end)
Yes, he did. Here it is. Donít play it unless youíre a masochist.

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Old August 8 2012, 09:23 PM   #11
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Re: credit for main title theme

Arrangers/orchestrators don't get composer credit, as a rule. The credit goes to the person who wrote the basic melody, regardless of how it's put together. (In fact, I once came across a claim that the "fanfare" portion of the TOS theme, the part used in the TNG titles, was actually created by Joseph Mullendore as a variation on Courage's main theme melody. But Courage got the sole credit because it was a variation on his work.) This is why Fred Steiner didn't get credit for the ten ST:TMP cues he did -- because he based them entirely on Goldsmith's themes/motifs rather than creating any new ones of his own. It's also why Dennis McCarthy, who arranged the TNG theme, didn't get credit for it along with Courage and Goldsmith.
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Old August 9 2012, 02:54 AM   #12
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Re: credit for main title theme

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Jerry Goldsmith did the TNG theme, Dennis McCarthy did the DSN theme (though I believe he did compose a theme for TNG that wasn't used in the end)
Correct. However, while McCarthy didn't write a new theme for TNG -- well, as you point out, he did but it wasn't used -- he was the one who wrote the arrangement of the TMP theme, and the Alexander Courage fanfare, which was used in TNG. His arrangement is shorter than the actual TMP version, plus uses far fewer instruments in the orchestra than Goldsmith did.

However, as Christopher points out, arrangers generally do not receive composer credit, so McCarthy did not get credit for the TNG theme. That went to Courage and Goldsmith, the two people who actually wrote the themes which McCarthy arranged.

And, BTW, while I don't think McCarthy's unused TNG theme would have worked nearly as well as Goldsmith's TMP theme did, I don't actually think it's that bad. What it reminds me of most is the seaQuest DSV theme, actually.
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Old August 9 2012, 04:27 AM   #13
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Re: credit for main title theme

I like McCarthy's TNG theme. And I don't like his arrangement of the Goldsmith theme. The way it's conducted and the smaller orchestra (and maybe other factors like the studio ambience, mixing, etc.) make it sound cheesy compared to the film version.

I also like the fact that the second through fourth notes of McCarthy's unused theme are the same as the first three notes of the Courage fanfare. (Actually the next note is the same too, but it's after a rest so it doesn't feel like part of the same phrase.)

And of course the middle part of McCarthy's unused main-title theme was the same as the Picard leitmotif that McCarthy often used in seasons 1-3 (perhaps most memorably in the climax of "Yesterday's Enterprise").
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Old August 9 2012, 05:29 AM   #14
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Re: credit for main title theme

^ Until "leitmotif" became a dirty word around season four.
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