Earth Final Conflict and Andromeda (Spoilers)

Sindatur · October 18 2012, 04:50 PM

I’ve heard people say about both Series that they fell apart anywhere between S2 and S4, depending who’s saying it, and seems to be little argument that both Series had definitely fallen apart by S5

So, I finished all 5 seasons of Earth: Final Conflict. There are liable to be spoilers for all of Earth: Final Conflict, so, if you don’t want to be spoiled, be advised. I enjoyed the first 4 seasons, and thought they progressed pretty well organically and made sense to me how they unfolded. The relationship between Da’an and Zo’or, the differences between them, Da’an. Da’an was the more trustworthy one, yet, still plotted and schemed and not always in Earth’s best interest. Sandoval’s Arc, the relationship between Da’an and his Protectors and the resistance. Now, I watched this in a marathon, at the pace of about a season a week, so, I didn’t really watch individual episodes and critique each one, it was more like if a specific episode wasn’t that great, I just popped in the next one when it was over and let it all blend together and judged it by the arc progression. S5, I definitely can see why it’s pretty much universally hated. It took an unexpected twist, of having a bigger threat emerge, when the threat of Taelons and Jiridians was eliminated, which is something few shows would do. That in itself was likely to turn folks off. Then of course, it pretty much Xena/Gabrielle in S5, (I imagine due to budget cuts?), which was a total departure, so, that probably lost even more folks’ respect. Truth be told, I think if the execution of the merged aliens was not so cheesy, it could’ve worked out very well, and been a great capper for the Series, but, yea, the execution left a lot to be desired.

I finished S2 of Andromeda last night, and I’ve really enjoyed the first two seasons, and don’t really think second half of S2 suffered from Wolfe’s departure at this point. The only thing I did notice is in S2 Dylan started becoming kind of insufferable, but, that actually seemed to mellow a bit in the second half of S2. Took them a long time to settle on Trance’s new look. At first, I couldn’t tell if her bone/cartilage appendage was a headband or part of her head (First off it was yellow, and went straight across her head, and looked like a yellow scrunchy, then they started changing the color to grey and changing the shape, I like it how it finally ended up. Tyr is simply an awesome character, he’s so calm and laid back, and the angrier he gets, the more cool and collected he becomes. Definitely an unsung SciFi hero, I’m surprised he doesn’t get more affection from SciFi fandom, I think he’s amongst the best of the SciFi heroes I’ve seen.

So, what’s everyone else’s opinion on Earth Final Conflict? What did you like about it, and when do you think it fell apart and why

Andromeda, what did you like and not like about it’s first two seasons (I will be continuing with the other 3 Seasons, so please refrain from spoiling anything beyond the last episode I might mention I’ve watched, which is currently the complete first two seasons)

Mark_Nguyen · October 18 2012, 06:06 PM

Something I hadn't heard about Andromeda, from Kevin Sorbo's appearance at the Montreal Comic-Con this year - he was NOT in favor of axing Robert Wolfe from his Exec position.

According to him, Tribune had something of a reputation of firing producers after the first season and replacing them with other people (he is apparently referencing E:FC, but I'm not sure what other shows he was talking about). His story goes that it came down to a vote, and three people out of five (not including him - he had a vote as an Exec himself) voted to fire.

As a result, I can certainly see how he could take that as an opportunity to put more of his own influence into the show, getting less uniforms, more babes, etc. added in. IMO that made for a less enjoyable show, leading me to abandon it by the beginning of the third year.

Mark

Christopher · October 18 2012, 06:37 PM

Mark_Nguyen wrote:

According to him, Tribune had something of a reputation of firing producers after the first season and replacing them with other people (he is apparently referencing E:FC, but I'm not sure what other shows he was talking about).

Pick a Tribune show, any Tribune show. The same happened with BeastMaster: The Series, and with just about everything else they made. I think RHW may have lasted longer than any other original showrunner of a Tribune series. Heck, E:FC's developer/original showrunner Richard C. Okie was fired less than halfway through season 1.

Mark_Nguyen · October 18 2012, 11:14 PM

Feh. I wonder if Wolfe saw it coming, or may even have expected it.

Point being for me, is that I always assumed that it was Sorbo that had a hand in getting the creator out of the way so he could change the show back to more familiar, Hercules-esque territory. At least from his perspective, it looks like he WANTED the show to stay on Wolfe's track and it was potentially the abscence of Wolfe's creative control that enabled Sorbo to recreate Hercules in space.

Can't say Sorbo isn't a heckuva nice guy, though. Out of all the guests whose panels I've moderated over the years, his was one of the most genuine and honest I've done. He comes across as a very intelligent guy, interested in politics and current events, and able to tell his stories with a lot of energy and humour.

Mark

MacLeod · October 18 2012, 11:19 PM

I gave up on Andromeda in the third season. It wasn't the greatest show to begin with, but the change of direction after Wolfe's depature for me turned it from an ok show to pass an hour into a what's on the other channels.

I managed to stick with E:FC for it's entire run, but I still think S1 was it's best.

Gotham Central · October 20 2012, 06:33 PM

Everything that eventually went wrong with Andromeda could be laid at the feet of Kevin Sorbo. It was Sorbo who bitched and complained that he was tired of the premise of restoring the Commonwealth (you know the whole point of the show). I think he said in an interview somewhere that "this isn't The West Wing" and that viewers should not expect that kind of quality. Sorbo is a B movie actor that seemed to feel most comfortable doing B grade work.

As for E:FC, lets be honest, the show never really recovers from the loss of Boone at the end of Season 1. The whole point of the show was that it was supposed to be his journey...and then someone decided to kill him off. Liam was an acceptable replacement but the story tension and power dynamic was never the same. E:FC's biggest problem was that they kept getting rid of their lead characters and the heroic actors (while retaining all of the villains). It would have been OK to do that if Da'an, Zo'or and Sandoval had been the primary focus of the show from the start. However since the focus was always on the human heroes, the revolving door meant that the series had a hard time telling a coherent story. By the time season 5 rolled around, you could not really care anymore because really, at that point who, wanted to watch a show about Renee Palmer and Street? Plus by that point they even chucked the villains out the window...so what were we left with?

Morpheus 02 · October 20 2012, 07:45 PM

i've just got a minute to reply (for now)...
both 4th seasons, to me, seemed like they were trying to get back to the set up of the 1st season, and i anticipated the 5 season.

...which of course was a mistake, as the 5th season of both seemed like totally different shows than their title. The budgets semeed like a fraction of what they had, and not a true tie up to the arcs they had built up.

C.E. Evans · October 20 2012, 08:04 PM

I actually liked Andromeda from beginning to end, but I do think the fifth season did suffer from having a smaller budget and was the weakest, IMO--still, I was pleased with how it ended, though. I dunno, for me, Andromeda was the "anti-Star Trek" at the time--less talking, more blowing just s

t up. Sure, the stories were forgettable, but I liked the look of the series, liked the cast, and the sort of '80s action show vibe the series eventually had.

Kelthaz · October 20 2012, 08:37 PM

I watched the first season of Andromeda and was not impressed with what I saw. The show was trying hard to be this intellectual masterpiece, but more often than not it just came off as pretentious nonsense written by a first year college student. Perhaps I would enjoy the dumber later years. Hercules in Space does sound quite appealing.

DWF · October 20 2012, 08:47 PM

Earth: Final Conflict, Andromeda and to a lesser degree Babylon 5 all suffered from similar problems in their final seasons. That being late renewals, lowered budgets and the fact that the story they were attempting to tell was more or less over after four years.

Sindatur · October 20 2012, 10:13 PM

I actually enjoyed E:FC all through S1-4. Losing Boone, wasn't so horrible, I thought Liam was a good replacement. Lily, I'm not sure if it was the actress, or the character, but, she was just so stiff and unnatural, so, I was happy to see Renee replace her. However, it was a bummer losing Augur and Johnathon Doors. S5, I was able to find enjoyment in it, but, it's really easy to just consider the show done after S4.

Andromeda, yea, in late S2, I did notice the loss of uniform, which was kinda strange, since he was trying to build the Common Wealth back up, you'd think the uniform would be way more important, and yea, the notches on his bed post did become unnecessary. Especially Spike's wife, where in the world did that come from

, I thought sure she was lying when it was pointed out the baby wasn't Dylan's. S3, I've now watched the first 6 episodes and it's crappy they've removed Tyr's forearm Talons and apparently Trance's head bones, with no explanation (Am I supposed to take this constant changing of Gold Trance's head as her deliberately changing her looks like it's an accessory, or crappy makeup?). Story is still going OK for now, though

B5, while admittedly it started off cold due to tying stuff up a few episodes earlier than expected, and other behind the scenes stuff, I still feel the back half of S5 was amongst the best of the show, every bit as good as S2-4

DWF · October 20 2012, 10:21 PM

Keith Hamilton Cobb hated the bonespurs so they decided to allow him to lose them.

Admiral2 · October 20 2012, 10:33 PM

I watched Andromeda all the way through and never got to the point where I hated it, but I found S5 annoying for the most part and thought the finale was meh.

On the other hand, I never got into E:FC. It was dull and pointless. I couldn't care less about anybody in the resistance and the Taelons were annoying to the point of aggravation. I even hated the theme music. So whatever changes were made in season 5 pretty much didn't effect me.

The Habs Fan · October 20 2012, 10:35 PM

I actually recently finished my first-time watch of EFC (I think you saw and participated in my thread). I enjoyed all of EFC (except for 95% of S5), and I'd say S1 and S4 were the best seasons.

Anyway, I've also watched all of Andromeda and I'd say S4 is pretty good and S5 not as good but not as bad as some people say. If I remember correctly, the last 4 or so episodes of Andromeda S5 are very good, which is more then I could say for EFC S5.

October 18 2012, 04:50 PM	#1
Sindatur Rear Admiral Location: Sacramento, CA	Earth Final Conflict and Andromeda (Spoilers) I’ve heard people say about both Series that they fell apart anywhere between S2 and S4, depending who’s saying it, and seems to be little argument that both Series had definitely fallen apart by S5 So, I finished all 5 seasons of Earth: Final Conflict. There are liable to be spoilers for all of Earth: Final Conflict, so, if you don’t want to be spoiled, be advised. I enjoyed the first 4 seasons, and thought they progressed pretty well organically and made sense to me how they unfolded. The relationship between Da’an and Zo’or, the differences between them, Da’an. Da’an was the more trustworthy one, yet, still plotted and schemed and not always in Earth’s best interest. Sandoval’s Arc, the relationship between Da’an and his Protectors and the resistance. Now, I watched this in a marathon, at the pace of about a season a week, so, I didn’t really watch individual episodes and critique each one, it was more like if a specific episode wasn’t that great, I just popped in the next one when it was over and let it all blend together and judged it by the arc progression. S5, I definitely can see why it’s pretty much universally hated. It took an unexpected twist, of having a bigger threat emerge, when the threat of Taelons and Jiridians was eliminated, which is something few shows would do. That in itself was likely to turn folks off. Then of course, it pretty much Xena/Gabrielle in S5, (I imagine due to budget cuts?), which was a total departure, so, that probably lost even more folks’ respect. Truth be told, I think if the execution of the merged aliens was not so cheesy, it could’ve worked out very well, and been a great capper for the Series, but, yea, the execution left a lot to be desired. I finished S2 of Andromeda last night, and I’ve really enjoyed the first two seasons, and don’t really think second half of S2 suffered from Wolfe’s departure at this point. The only thing I did notice is in S2 Dylan started becoming kind of insufferable, but, that actually seemed to mellow a bit in the second half of S2. Took them a long time to settle on Trance’s new look. At first, I couldn’t tell if her bone/cartilage appendage was a headband or part of her head (First off it was yellow, and went straight across her head, and looked like a yellow scrunchy, then they started changing the color to grey and changing the shape, I like it how it finally ended up. Tyr is simply an awesome character, he’s so calm and laid back, and the angrier he gets, the more cool and collected he becomes. Definitely an unsung SciFi hero, I’m surprised he doesn’t get more affection from SciFi fandom, I think he’s amongst the best of the SciFi heroes I’ve seen. So, what’s everyone else’s opinion on Earth Final Conflict? What did you like about it, and when do you think it fell apart and why Andromeda, what did you like and not like about it’s first two seasons (I will be continuing with the other 3 Seasons, so please refrain from spoiling anything beyond the last episode I might mention I’ve watched, which is currently the complete first two seasons) __________________ One Day I hope to be the Man my Cat thinks I am Where are we going? And why are we in this Handbasket?

October 18 2012, 06:06 PM	#2
Mark_Nguyen Commodore Location: Calgary, Alberta	Re: Earth Final Conflict and Andromeda (Spoilers) Something I hadn't heard about Andromeda, from Kevin Sorbo's appearance at the Montreal Comic-Con this year - he was NOT in favor of axing Robert Wolfe from his Exec position. According to him, Tribune had something of a reputation of firing producers after the first season and replacing them with other people (he is apparently referencing E:FC, but I'm not sure what other shows he was talking about). His story goes that it came down to a vote, and three people out of five (not including him - he had a vote as an Exec himself) voted to fire. As a result, I can certainly see how he could take that as an opportunity to put more of his own influence into the show, getting less uniforms, more babes, etc. added in. IMO that made for a less enjoyable show, leading me to abandon it by the beginning of the third year. Mark __________________ Mark Nguyen - Producer The 404s - Improv Comedy Group Oh, I like that Trek thing too...

October 18 2012, 11:14 PM	#4
Mark_Nguyen Commodore Location: Calgary, Alberta	Re: Earth Final Conflict and Andromeda (Spoilers) Feh. I wonder if Wolfe saw it coming, or may even have expected it. Point being for me, is that I always assumed that it was Sorbo that had a hand in getting the creator out of the way so he could change the show back to more familiar, Hercules-esque territory. At least from his perspective, it looks like he WANTED the show to stay on Wolfe's track and it was potentially the abscence of Wolfe's creative control that enabled Sorbo to recreate Hercules in space. Can't say Sorbo isn't a heckuva nice guy, though. Out of all the guests whose panels I've moderated over the years, his was one of the most genuine and honest I've done. He comes across as a very intelligent guy, interested in politics and current events, and able to tell his stories with a lot of energy and humour. Mark __________________ Mark Nguyen - Producer The 404s - Improv Comedy Group Oh, I like that Trek thing too...

October 18 2012, 11:19 PM	#5
MacLeod Vice Admiral Location: Great Britain	Re: Earth Final Conflict and Andromeda (Spoilers) I gave up on Andromeda in the third season. It wasn't the greatest show to begin with, but the change of direction after Wolfe's depature for me turned it from an ok show to pass an hour into a what's on the other channels. I managed to stick with E:FC for it's entire run, but I still think S1 was it's best. __________________ On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.

October 20 2012, 06:33 PM	#6
Gotham Central Vice Admiral Location: Under the Globe with Clark	Re: Earth Final Conflict and Andromeda (Spoilers) Everything that eventually went wrong with Andromeda could be laid at the feet of Kevin Sorbo. It was Sorbo who bitched and complained that he was tired of the premise of restoring the Commonwealth (you know the whole point of the show). I think he said in an interview somewhere that "this isn't The West Wing" and that viewers should not expect that kind of quality. Sorbo is a B movie actor that seemed to feel most comfortable doing B grade work. As for E:FC, lets be honest, the show never really recovers from the loss of Boone at the end of Season 1. The whole point of the show was that it was supposed to be his journey...and then someone decided to kill him off. Liam was an acceptable replacement but the story tension and power dynamic was never the same. E:FC's biggest problem was that they kept getting rid of their lead characters and the heroic actors (while retaining all of the villains). It would have been OK to do that if Da'an, Zo'or and Sandoval had been the primary focus of the show from the start. However since the focus was always on the human heroes, the revolving door meant that the series had a hard time telling a coherent story. By the time season 5 rolled around, you could not really care anymore because really, at that point who, wanted to watch a show about Renee Palmer and Street? Plus by that point they even chucked the villains out the window...so what were we left with? __________________ Well maybe I'm the faggot America. I'm not a part of a redneck agenda. Now everybody do the propaganda. And sing along in the age of paranoia Green Day

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October 20 2012, 07:45 PM	#7
Morpheus 02 Commodore Location: Chicago IL	Re: Earth Final Conflict and Andromeda (Spoilers) i've just got a minute to reply (for now)... both 4th seasons, to me, seemed like they were trying to get back to the set up of the 1st season, and i anticipated the 5 season. ...which of course was a mistake, as the 5th season of both seemed like totally different shows than their title. The budgets semeed like a fraction of what they had, and not a true tie up to the arcs they had built up. __________________ Morpheus 02 a.k.a. JP Paulus jp [at] paulus . com

October 20 2012, 08:04 PM	#8
C.E. Evans Vice Admiral Location: Saint Louis (aka Defiance)	Re: Earth Final Conflict and Andromeda (Spoilers) I actually liked Andromeda from beginning to end, but I do think the fifth season did suffer from having a smaller budget and was the weakest, IMO--still, I was pleased with how it ended, though. I dunno, for me, Andromeda was the "anti-Star Trek" at the time--less talking, more blowing just st up. Sure, the stories were forgettable, but I liked the look of the series, liked the cast, and the sort of '80s action show vibe the series eventually had. __________________ "Shout, shout, let it all out..."

October 20 2012, 08:37 PM	#9
Kelthaz Commodore Location: Toronto, Ontario	Re: Earth Final Conflict and Andromeda (Spoilers) I watched the first season of Andromeda and was not impressed with what I saw. The show was trying hard to be this intellectual masterpiece, but more often than not it just came off as pretentious nonsense written by a first year college student. Perhaps I would enjoy the dumber later years. Hercules in Space does sound quite appealing. __________________ "Who are you?! And how did you get in here?!" "I'm the locksmith. And... I'm the locksmith."

October 20 2012, 08:47 PM	#10
DWF Vice Admiral Location: Columbus, Ohio	Re: Earth Final Conflict and Andromeda (Spoilers) Earth: Final Conflict, Andromeda and to a lesser degree Babylon 5 all suffered from similar problems in their final seasons. That being late renewals, lowered budgets and the fact that the story they were attempting to tell was more or less over after four years. __________________ The greatest science fiction series of all time is Doctor Who! And I'll take you all on, one-by-one or all in a bunch to back it up!" --- Harlan Ellison, from his introduction to the PINNACLE series of Doctor Who books

October 20 2012, 10:13 PM	#11
Sindatur Rear Admiral Location: Sacramento, CA	Re: Earth Final Conflict and Andromeda (Spoilers) I actually enjoyed E:FC all through S1-4. Losing Boone, wasn't so horrible, I thought Liam was a good replacement. Lily, I'm not sure if it was the actress, or the character, but, she was just so stiff and unnatural, so, I was happy to see Renee replace her. However, it was a bummer losing Augur and Johnathon Doors. S5, I was able to find enjoyment in it, but, it's really easy to just consider the show done after S4. Andromeda, yea, in late S2, I did notice the loss of uniform, which was kinda strange, since he was trying to build the Common Wealth back up, you'd think the uniform would be way more important, and yea, the notches on his bed post did become unnecessary. Especially Spike's wife, where in the world did that come from , I thought sure she was lying when it was pointed out the baby wasn't Dylan's. S3, I've now watched the first 6 episodes and it's crappy they've removed Tyr's forearm Talons and apparently Trance's head bones, with no explanation (Am I supposed to take this constant changing of Gold Trance's head as her deliberately changing her looks like it's an accessory, or crappy makeup?). Story is still going OK for now, though B5, while admittedly it started off cold due to tying stuff up a few episodes earlier than expected, and other behind the scenes stuff, I still feel the back half of S5 was amongst the best of the show, every bit as good as S2-4 __________________ One Day I hope to be the Man my Cat thinks I am Where are we going? And why are we in this Handbasket?

October 20 2012, 10:21 PM	#12
DWF Vice Admiral Location: Columbus, Ohio	Re: Earth Final Conflict and Andromeda (Spoilers) Keith Hamilton Cobb hated the bonespurs so they decided to allow him to lose them. __________________ The greatest science fiction series of all time is Doctor Who! And I'll take you all on, one-by-one or all in a bunch to back it up!" --- Harlan Ellison, from his introduction to the PINNACLE series of Doctor Who books

October 20 2012, 10:33 PM	#13
Admiral2 Vice Admiral Location: The PIT, in Utah...	Re: Earth Final Conflict and Andromeda (Spoilers) I watched Andromeda all the way through and never got to the point where I hated it, but I found S5 annoying for the most part and thought the finale was meh. On the other hand, I never got into E:FC. It was dull and pointless. I couldn't care less about anybody in the resistance and the Taelons were annoying to the point of aggravation. I even hated the theme music. So whatever changes were made in season 5 pretty much didn't effect me. __________________ "Actually that one scene is quite representative of the film: driving a classic off a cliff and thoroughly trashing it." -Warped9 on ST09

October 20 2012, 10:35 PM	#14
The Habs Fan Commodore Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada	Re: Earth Final Conflict and Andromeda (Spoilers) I actually recently finished my first-time watch of EFC (I think you saw and participated in my thread). I enjoyed all of EFC (except for 95% of S5), and I'd say S1 and S4 were the best seasons. Anyway, I've also watched all of Andromeda and I'd say S4 is pretty good and S5 not as good but not as bad as some people say. If I remember correctly, the last 4 or so episodes of Andromeda S5 are very good, which is more then I could say for EFC S5.