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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old August 8 2012, 03:34 PM   #91
DonIago
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

The treaty was signed in "Journey's End", not "Chain of Command".

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Fede...dassian_Treaty

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Demilitarized_Zone
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Old August 8 2012, 04:10 PM   #92
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

Maquis. And yes, that includes Eddington's cloaked WMD plan.
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Old August 8 2012, 04:25 PM   #93
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

-Brett- wrote: View Post
Forget the Maquis. What about that Dominion war? Millions dead because those entitled douchebags on Earth were too selfish to relocate. Shame on anyone who supports the Federation. Peace is worth more than some random property, after all.
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Old August 8 2012, 05:54 PM   #94
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

But the Dominion didn't go to war against the Alpha Quadrant powers to control mere territory, they went to war to control the evil solids. Even if every human evacuated Earth, they'd still be chased down by the Jem'Hadar, and either killed or corralled, because solids on the loose are a threat.

The Maquis could've ended the problem by evacuating the disputed territory. The Cardassians weren't going to chase them down, just chase them out. Similar tactics wouldn't have worked against the Dominion, so comparing the situations is nonsense.
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Old August 10 2012, 10:37 AM   #95
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

DonIago wrote: View Post
Why should the colonies solely have the right to decide whether or not the treaty is enacted?

You ask any population of size a question and you'll get disagreement. If 98% of the Federation supported the treaty and 2% said war would be preferable, should the Federation go to war?

Seriously, for the people who don't favor the treaty, I'd like to hear what they would have done instead. There seems to be a lack of alternative suggestions in this thread.
They don't solely deserve the right, but they do deserve some say, since it is their colonies being surrendered over to Cardassia. Just because they constitute a fraction of the population/territory of the Federation, does not mean that their rights should be violated.

It is how the Federation treated the colonies in question is what set the foundation for the Maquis. The Maquis felt disenfranchised, and they felt rights were violated in the treaty, and rightfully so. If, let's say, the leaders of the various colonies took part in the negotiation, no matter how small the colony might be, the Federation ambassadors could have reached a compromise with the very people who were making the sacrifices.

Here's a short list of things I would have done as the head negotiator of the treaty.

First, I'd gather as many of the colony leaders as possible to get their input on the negotiation process. If they're going to be screwed over, at least they should have a small part in the process.

Then, I'd explain that the borders, as they are, are too disorganized to properly defend all of these colonies from future Cardassian aggression, so the borders need to be normalized. I'd state that it'd be unlikely for the Federation to keep all of the colonies, and some sacrifices might be necessary to secure and defend the majority of your worlds and populations.

Then, I'd basically show them of the borders, pre-War, which I imagine are Cardassian and Federation colonies scattered about, and the "border" that would exist if they kept the same layout. I can only imagine it'd be a bunch of scribbles, with some colonies basically being little pockets surrounded by Cardassian worlds.

After that, I'd negotiate with the colonists about a more defensible border, basically being a more straight line which consists of the densest pockets of Federation colonies, with some scattered Cardassian pockets, and thus highlighting the few worlds that would basically fall under Cardassian jurisdiction.

After what I'm sure what would be a lot of grumbling, and some discussion of possible minor shifts, I'd tell the colonies on those worlds on the Cardassian side of the border their options.
  1. Evacuate and resettle on the Federation side, thus insuring their freedom and security from Cardassia. Any threat by the Cardassian Order against them would be an act of war.
  2. Stay, surrender their Federation citizenship and become members of the Cardassian Union, although that means they basically become under the heel of a fascist dictatorship.
  3. Stay, keep Federation citizenship, but realize that their freedoms and security cannot be guaranteed, and any attempt by the Cardassians to take their worlds will not receive Starfleet assistance.
Now, once their options are on the table, and once they realize being Federation citizens within Cardassian space means absolutely nothing to either the Cardassians or the Federation (as canon shows to be true since Starfleet basically did nothing once Cardassian state involvement in violating the treaty came to light), a majority of those colonists would realistically leave. No doubt there will still be some who stay, but there will always be a few stubborn individuals who refuse to leave. However, since they were made fully aware of the consequences of that, the Federation can wash their hands of any guilt.

Once an agreement with the colonists is made, then you go to the Cardassians, and hammer out a deal. Now, since the proposal would most likely consist of keeping the largest clusters of Federation colonies under your side of the border, it'd be logical that is how the negotiations would proceed. If the Cardassians get greedy, remind them that:
  1. We're stronger than you.
  2. We have Klingons as allies.
  3. We have superior technology.
  4. We're more numerous than you.
So on and so forth. The one advantage of the Cardassians is that they have a higher tolerance for war weariness. Anyway, since Cardassians aren't stupid, even if they are arrogant and egotistical, they should realize that they can't push too much, and I wouldn't compromise too far from said territorial border exchanges. Maybe some monetary payments, maybe some scientific exchange, but the border would be hard to change.

Once it is settled, then we discuss how to manage colonies that fall on the other side of the border. I'll tell them which worlds are voluntarily evacuating, and which want to stay. I'd politely suggest, as a sign of the new peace agreement, that these worlds are treated properly, and given sovereignty in domestic affairs. In exchange, we'd allow Cardassian colonies on our side of the border to freely communicate and exchange with the Cardassian Union, and security matters can be handled on any colonial justice system established planetside.

No colonies on either side of the border can have a large military presence (beyond X troop garrisons, Y fleets, Z orbital military installations) for whatever amount of distance. Basically creating a DMZ. However, if either side begins building up military forces, this segment of the treaty is voided, and the other side can respond to the buildup in kind. Of course, this provision would be unnecessary since the Cardassians are an honorable and lawful people, and such a provision would almost be deemed insulting, but protocol is protocol.

There, rights of Federation colonies respected. Border most likely resolved similarly to what occurs on the show, but this time said colonists understand that those who stay behind are basically on their own. DMZ established, with a firm commitment to the Cardassians that if they rearm, so shall we, and we have the better guns...and the Klingons. Basically, I would commit to the colonies that they are Federation citizens, and they deserve the respect and protections as Federation citizens on Earth or Vulcan, and I will not throw them to the wolves, or in this case, an aggressive fascist empire.

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Old August 14 2012, 10:15 PM   #96
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

And do we know that they weren't consuluted or represented?
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Old August 15 2012, 12:52 AM   #97
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

If anything, evidence suggests otherwise, as Nechayev mentions at least a limited degree of inclusion in "Journey's End".
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Old August 15 2012, 03:35 AM   #98
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

commanderkai wrote: View Post
If the Cardassians get greedy, remind them that:
  1. We're stronger than you.
  2. We have Klingons as allies.
  3. We have superior technology.
  4. We're more numerous than you.
So on and so forth.
This is the mistake I think a lot of Trek fans make. The Cardassian are not, repeat are not, weaker than the Federation, they can't be. These two interstellar power fought for decades, the Federation didn't in that time roll over the Cardassians. If the Federation were superior in technology and numbers at the very least Starfleet would have destroyed the bulk of Cardassian military starships. Obviously they did not.

The Federation eventually signed a treaty that all agree was a compromise, the Federation didn't dictate terms to the Cardassians, which they had not choice but to accept.

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Old August 15 2012, 04:05 AM   #99
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
This is the mistake I think a lot of Trek fans make. The Cardassian are not, repeat are not, weaker than the Federation, they can't be. These two interstellar power fought for decades, the Federation didn't in that time roll over the Cardassians. If the Federation were superior in technology and numbers at the very least Starfleet would have destroyed the bulk of Cardassian military starships. Obviously they did not.

The Federation eventually signed a treaty that all agree was a compromise, the Federation didn't dictate terms to the Cardassians, which they had not choice but to accept.

Respectfully disagree. If they were on equal footing, Benjamin Maxwell would have been destroyed in short order.

The problem isn't that the Feds couldn't roll over the Cardies, it's that they wouldn't roll over the Cardies. They seem to fight only defensive wars, and they have this crazy thing about not conquering people.

Watch any Cardassian episode that takes place before their union with the Dominion. When are they "scary"? In "Chain of Command" it's when they erroneously are thought to have WMDs and once Picard is captured they are scary only in that the Feds will be embarrassed if their mistake is made public.

In DS9 they are scary in the first few episodes when it is a warship versus runabouts and a mining facility.
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Old August 15 2012, 04:34 AM   #100
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

It's a tough call, made even tougher by the mishandling of the whole Maquis thing. The concept was interesting, and there were some great eps centered on this plotline, but the whole "Are they still UFP citizens or aren't they?" continuous flip-flop kinda made it harder to parse the whole thing out. I sympathize with the Maquis, but given the larger interests and responsibilities of the UFP government, it's hard to argue with the idea that they shouldn't let one small group of colonies derail something like a peace treaty. At the same time, I could never shake the feeling that it couldn't have been that hard to just redraw some of the lines so that none (or at least fewer) of those planets had to switch hands at all, while still accommodating whatever both sides wanted from the treaty as a whole.

But assuming that they couldn't, for whatever reason... again, the problem is the citzenship thing. They said in "Journey's End" that they'd have to give up being UFP citizens. This makes sense. Essentially, they are becoming their own little nation, one that happens to exist in Cardassian territory. Yet so much of what went on after this ep with the DMZ/Maquis plotline seemed to indicate that they all WERE still citizens, and that a big part of the tension was the possibility that they could drag the Feds back into war with Cardassia if not stopped.

Finally, while the Maquis themselves need to take their fair share of blame for what went on, and went over the line sometimes (fortunately the "cloaked missiles to Cardassia" thing was a ruse, but if it had been real, all sympathy would have gone out the window), I will say this: given that part of the arrangement apparently was that the Cardassian government was also ok with these people being on these planets in their territory, any Cardassian that enters one of those former Federation colonies uninvited with the intent to cause harm deserves whatever fate he receives. Whether or not the Maquis stepped over the line doesn't change the fact that those "rogue" Cardassians had no right to harass and attack those colonists, which they clearly were doing.
T'Girl wrote: View Post
This is the mistake I think a lot of Trek fans make. The Cardassian are not, repeat are not, weaker than the Federation, they can't be.
No mistake. The Federation is considerably more advanced technologically, and any one-on-one combat situation between a Federation starship and a Cardassian warship heavily favors Starfleet. Of this there can be no doubt.

The evidence is the TNG ep "The Wounded." There were two different instances in that ep of a Federation starship taking fire while their shields were down, and then effortlessly pasting their Cardassian opponents. Both of those opponents were warships (the one that attacked the E-D was clearly Galor-class, and the one that attacked the Phoenix was identified by Macet as a warship).
These two interstellar power fought for decades, the Federation didn't in that time roll over the Cardassians. If the Federation were superior in technology and numbers at the very least Starfleet would have destroyed the bulk of Cardassian military starships. Obviously they did not.
Numbers? Perhaps not. The Federation is big, and certainly has a higher gross population than the Cardassian Union. It follows that Starfleet would be pretty large as well, but UFP citizens have a LOT of varying interests and career paths open to them. Whereas in Cardassian society, a rather ridiculous percentage of their population seems to serve in the military in some capacity. So the Fed's numbers advantage might be very slight, if it exists at all, especially if the Cardies were pouring all of their military resources into the war, and the Feds weren't.

Yes, that's all speculation, but that's part of my point: we must speculate about the nature, length, and severity of the Fed/Cardie war, because no on-screen dialog or flashbacks or anything ever gave us a clear indicator of what it was really like. Whereas the superiority of Federation military technology over Cardassian military technology was clearly and unambiguously laid out in canon. So the only thing we can do is speculate and come up with fan theories about why the war lasted for so long (and why the treaty is so two-sided and treated as so important), despite that superiority.
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Old August 15 2012, 04:45 PM   #101
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

JRoss wrote: View Post
The problem isn't that the Feds couldn't roll over the Cardies, it's that they wouldn't roll over the Cardies. They seem to fight only defensive wars, and they have this crazy thing about not conquering people.
I don't think it was really a matter of not conquering anyone. They could have just destroyed the Cardassian military without out-right conquering Cardassia - and since I assume the Cardies attacked first destroying their military power so as to prevent further attacks would have been still a defensive act. It was more that the Federation decided that that result wouldn't have been worth the increased casualties and destruction caused by an all-out war. I have a feeling the Cardassian War was already a rather unpopular war in the Federation (something like Vietnam for Americans). And in the latter stages of the war the Feds had a lot more to worry about on their other borders, what with the Borg, the Romulans coming out of their isolation, the Klingons in turmoil, etc.
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Old August 16 2012, 07:29 AM   #102
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

neozeks wrote: View Post
JRoss wrote: View Post
The problem isn't that the Feds couldn't roll over the Cardies, it's that they wouldn't roll over the Cardies. They seem to fight only defensive wars, and they have this crazy thing about not conquering people.
I don't think it was really a matter of not conquering anyone. They could have just destroyed the Cardassian military without out-right conquering Cardassia - and since I assume the Cardies attacked first destroying their military power so as to prevent further attacks would have been still a defensive act. It was more that the Federation decided that that result wouldn't have been worth the increased casualties and destruction caused by an all-out war. I have a feeling the Cardassian War was already a rather unpopular war in the Federation (something like Vietnam for Americans). And in the latter stages of the war the Feds had a lot more to worry about on their other borders, what with the Borg, the Romulans coming out of their isolation, the Klingons in turmoil, etc.
Your thoughts work for me, too. There was just never enough evidence provided to show that Cardassia was an equal to the Fed. Although, one thing that I can think of is that Starfleet would not likely completely demilitarize a nation just to defend itself, as they'd probably then be expected to defend that nation in perpetuity.
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Old August 17 2012, 06:41 PM   #103
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

DonIago wrote: View Post
If anything, evidence suggests otherwise, as Nechayev mentions at least a limited degree of inclusion in "Journey's End".
The same episode where they were about to remove a colony by force? Yeah...I'm not sure how believable that is, unless "limited degree of inclusion" means bringing everyone there to break the news. I'd consider the improper handling of these colonies as the Federation as evidence that said colonies were improperly handled in the treaty process.

Sadly, there's no real canon evidence one way or another, apart from interpretation of what has been shown on the show.
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Old August 17 2012, 07:13 PM   #104
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

The fact that the treaty didn't go the way some parties may have wanted doesn't preclude their having had a role in the discussions regarding said treaty. "You can't always get what you want," and all.
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Old August 17 2012, 07:30 PM   #105
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

DonIago wrote: View Post
The fact that the treaty didn't go the way some parties may have wanted doesn't preclude their having had a role in the discussions regarding said treaty. "You can't always get what you want," and all.
True enough, but in my interpretation, all of the episodes relating to the treaty and the Maquis show how the issue was poorly handled by the Federation/Starfleet. Sadly, the information is lacking...which is a bit disappointing since this could have been rather interesting to view on screen.
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