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Old August 5 2012, 05:24 AM   #31
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

^ Exactly. I had thought it was common knowledge that any ships that the Maquis had were actually stolen from Starfleet. It's not like they could have had much of a shipbuilding capability inside the DMZ anyway.
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Old August 5 2012, 05:25 AM   #32
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

Well the Maquis ships were stated to be "modified old support couriers" I'd find it more likely the Federation saw how effective they were as fighter craft and began to mass produce them with the Dominion war clouds on the horizon.

But as for the Maquis against the Federation? They started out attacking only Cardassian targets. The Federation just repeatedly interfered, attacked them at every oppurtunity, and the such. You do get the impression they weren't actively targetting the Federation until Eddington took over though, which did up the ante to say the least, but can't be surprising in hindsight.
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Old August 5 2012, 05:27 AM   #33
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

Eddington? Pfft. He was an egotistical jackass, nothing more. He was in it for his own ego. He wasn't anywhere near as principled as, for example, Chakotay.

And the only reason the Federation 'interfered' was because the actions of the Maquis were risking war with Cardassia.
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Old August 5 2012, 05:41 AM   #34
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Eddington? Pfft. He was an egotistical jackass, nothing more. He was in it for his own ego. He wasn't anywhere near as principled as, for example, Chakotay.

And the only reason the Federation 'interfered' was because the actions of the Maquis were risking war with Cardassia.
If Chakotay had principles he hid them well, with his one line an episode.

Really Sisko and Eddington are two sides of the same coin. Both of them do have huge egos. Eddington wants to go play romantic hero, Sisko takes Eddington's betrayal personally and wants revenge. The grudge match between the two is pretty much a personal vendetta more than Federation vs Maquis.

Eddington raises the stakes by using biogenic weapons against the Cardassian planets in the DMZ, Sisko responds in turn against the Maquis colonies(which is really a WTF moment when Worf, the most trigger happy guy in Trek, questions an order to fire). Eddington definitely was a war criminal by using said biogenic weapons, but Sisko was just as guilty. Sisko using that trilithium resin is the equivilent of a US sub captain firing a tactical nuke at an Arabian village he suspects of holding an Al Qaida cell without bothering to check with his chain of command.

Eddington was dead on about "And you're betraying [your uniform]! The said part is you don't even realize it!" They really should have been sharing a cell.
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Old August 5 2012, 05:44 AM   #35
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

Sisko's actions weren't on the same level as Eddington's.

Eddington, by the very action of initiating the use of bioweapons, demonstrated his belief in his own ego (and possibly the genocide of the Cardassian race). Eddington would have been quite happy to kill every Cardassian in the DMZ, whether or not they were involved in any actions against the Maquis colonies.

Sisko, OTOH, simply leveled the playing field. By deploying the same weapons against the Maquis, Sisko merely ensured that the two sides - Cardassian and Maquis - would have to exchange colony sites. Nothing more than that. By his own actions Sisko stopped any further genocide, by ensuring that the Maquis would have to give up no more, and no less, than what the Cardassians would have suffered at Eddington's hand.

Side note: If Eddington had lived to see what happened to Cardassia itself at the end of the Dominion War, I wonder what he'd think. He'd probably be laughing his ass off.

Oh well...whether it be a personal comparison (Sisko vs. Eddington), or Federation vs. Maquis, the basic theme is the same. Order (Federation) vs. Chaos (Maquis). The same process repeats on multiple levels.
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Old August 5 2012, 06:14 AM   #36
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Sisko's actions weren't on the same level as Eddington's.

Eddington, by the very action of initiating the use of bioweapons, demonstrated his belief in his own ego (and possibly the genocide of the Cardassian race). Eddington would have been quite happy to kill every Cardassian in the DMZ, whether or not they were involved in any actions against the Maquis colonies.

Sisko, OTOH, simply leveled the playing field. By deploying the same weapons against the Maquis, Sisko merely ensured that the two sides - Cardassian and Maquis - would have to exchange colony sites. Nothing more than that. By his own actions Sisko stopped any further genocide, by ensuring that the Maquis would have to give up no more, and no less, than what the Cardassians would have suffered at Eddington's hand.

Side note: If Eddington had lived to see what happened to Cardassia itself at the end of the Dominion War, I wonder what he'd think. He'd probably be laughing his ass off.

Oh well...whether it be a personal comparison (Sisko vs. Eddington), or Federation vs. Maquis, the basic theme is the same. Order (Federation) vs. Chaos (Maquis). The same process repeats on multiple levels.
Well you should be all for the Dominion if you think "order" is the only justifiable force in the world. I mean they slaughtered those 800 million Cardassians in the name of order after all. The Cardassians would have said they subjugated Bajor and screwed around with those Maquis worlds in the name of order after all.

Really though, both Sisko and Eddington have a lot of blood on their hands. Unless you really think that on planets with thousands, if not millions of people, everyone has a spaceship they can hop onto with a few minutes notice even assuming you can get in touch with everyone. That's cheap saying Eddington's a villain for doing it but when Sisko does it, it's just "evening the playing field." The method of poisoning entire planets should be morally condemnable no matter the reasons.

As for his reaction to the Cardassian masscre? That's hard. I don't think he'd be laughing his ass off, he was an antagonist sure, but he was no Gul Dukat or any other traditional Trek Villain. Assuming he surived in a Federation prison(or who knows, they might have given back his commision with all the manpower shortages during the war), in my opinion, he'd be spiteful at first, even calling it poetic justice(just like Martok) until the enormity of the statistic set in for him.
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Old August 5 2012, 06:25 AM   #37
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

The Cardassian massacre had nothing to do with order and everything to do with revenge and arguably the female shapeshifter going batshit crazy.

As we have no idea how many Maquis were on the planet Sisko torpedoed, nor how much access they had to ships (given they were refugees by this point, it's quite possible they were ready to make a speedy exit if necessary) I'm not sure it's reasonable to assume there were any casualties. I can see Starfleet overlooking the situation much more readily if no death ensued, and it's obvious that Sisko didn't take any serious heat for his actions.
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Old August 5 2012, 06:46 AM   #38
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

DonIago wrote: View Post
The Cardassian massacre had nothing to do with order and everything to do with revenge and arguably the female shapeshifter going batshit crazy.

As we have no idea how many Maquis were on the planet Sisko torpedoed, nor how much access they had to ships (given they were refugees by this point, it's quite possible they were ready to make a speedy exit if necessary) I'm not sure it's reasonable to assume there were any casualties. I can see Starfleet overlooking the situation much more readily if no death ensued, and it's obvious that Sisko didn't take any serious heat for his actions.
I get the inner need to vindicate the main protagonist, but do you really think a group of refugees is going to have a ship for every person just sitting around?
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Old August 5 2012, 07:01 AM   #39
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

sonak wrote: View Post
the Federation.


Peace trumps some random pieces of land.
Spend your life tying to build a legacy for yourself and your family and see how YOU react when someone who has no right to do so gives away YOUR land.


And in the 24th century, where your "home" is just doesn't really matter. The UFP is a utopia where all your basic needs are provided for and you can work as whatever you want.
Only on the core worlds, as Sisko once noted.

"On Earth, there is no poverty, no crime, no war. You look out the window of Starfleet Headquarters and you see paradise. Well, it's easy to be a saint in paradise, but the Maquis do not live in paradise. Out there in the Demilitarized Zone, all the problems haven't been solved yet. Out there, there are no saints — just people. Angry, scared, determined people who are going to do whatever it takes to survive, whether it meets with Federation approval or not!"
And as Eddington noted:

"Why is the Federation so obsessed with the Maquis? We've never harmed you. And yet we're constantly arrested and charged with terrorism. Starships chase us through the Badlands and our supporters are harassed and ridiculed. Why? Because we've left the Federation, and that's the one thing you can't accept. Nobody leaves paradise. Everyone should want to be in the Federation. Hell, you even want the Cardassians to join. You're only sending them replicators because one day they can take their "rightful place" on the Federation Council. You know, in some ways you're even worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious. You assimilate people and they don't even know it."
or as Goshaven noted in "Ensigns of Command"

Gosheven, Data, and Ard'rian are standing near the pool of water. Gosheven cups some water in a hand. GOSHEVEN See that? Do you have any idea what it is? What it means? DATA It is water, a substance composed of two atoms of hydrogen -- GOSHEVEN It's not water. It's blood and sweat -- the result of a hundred and forty years of combined effort. (ALTERNATE: ninety years) This isn't a town. (MORE) STAR TREK: "Ensigns of Command" REV. 7/24/89 - ACT TWO 23. 22 CONTINUED: GOSHEVEN (Cont'd) It's a monument to every man, woman, and child who has lived and died on Tau Cygna Five. ARD'RIAN Gosheven, you're talking nonsense. GOSHEVEN Am I? My grandfather's buried on that mountain. (points to the distant line of hills) He died in a rock slide surveying the route for this aqueduct. This colony exists because of his sacrifice, and the sacrifices of thousands of others. No, we're not leaving. DATA The Sheliak will not accept humans on their planet. And they will not hesitate to use force to remove you. GOSHEVEN (calmly) And we will not hesitate to fight back. DATA You cannot win. GOSHEVEN You just don't understand, do you? We will not be bullied off our land... not by you, and not by the Sheliak.
It's not like now where relocation might mean having to find a new job, a new house, etc.
In the colonies, that is exactly what it means.

The Maquis "cause" was just silly.
Only if you buy into the nonsense "perfect universe" preached by the Church of St Roddenberry.

The Federation of Kirk's day wouldn't leave the Maquis hanging out to dry. It says something terrible about the 24th century Federation that it would.
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Old August 5 2012, 07:18 AM   #40
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

sonak wrote: View Post
the Federation.


Peace trumps some random pieces of land.
Sooo if the Government came in and said your home was to be purchased by them and demolished due to "Imminent Domain," that would be OK, right?


...in the 24th century, where your "home" is just doesn't really matter. The UFP is a utopia where all your basic needs are provided for and you can work as whatever you want.
Those planets were their homes. It obviously DID matter. And no, the Federation isn't a utopia. There are pockets of corruption within both the Fed and Starfleet, and it's been demonstrated time and again. This situation isn't too different - Fed makes a deal with a KNOWN oppressive and hostile force, and basically turns a blind eye to any Federation citizens who's homes happen to fall on the Cardi side of the new boarders. So it's a "utopia" as long as you do what the nanny state tells you to do, otherwise you're bent over by Cardassians when your home happens to end up in their territory when boarder lines are redrawn.

Where's the morality in that?


It's not like now where relocation might mean having to find a new job, a new house, etc.


The Maquis "cause" was just silly.
It IS the same due to principal, but that's not even the point. The Fed basically told those people "hey, all of you over there! You're gonna either have to move or fall under Cardassian rule." What the Fed actually was saying was "Hey all of you over there! We f***ed you over, and if you stay where you live, your new group of governors will f*** you over and over and over. Too bad - we need to maintain our (pretend) utopia at the cost of YOUR asses."

Again the morality of those actions are where, exactly? How is it right and fair?

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Old August 5 2012, 07:21 AM   #41
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

Timo wrote: View Post
You are happy where you are.
And that's what you go to a war over, and get thousands killed? Shame on you!

The proper response is to write a scathing letter in the local newspaper, or go to the pub, get drunk and complain to your pint until it appears to start listening. Not to start shooting at people.

I mean last I hear on the subject they weren't federation citizens any more.
That never happened. In "Journey's End", a bunch of colonists who definitely weren't Maquis abandoned their UFP citizenship and were never heard of again. In the remaining episodes describing the colonists at the Cardassian border, a bunch of colonists started shooting at stuff but never had the guts to stop being UFP citizens and reaping the benefits; when this murderous scum was finally wiped out in "Blaze of Glory", Eddington expressed anguish that they had been on the verge of declaring independence from the UFP, but never got around to it.

Timo Saloniemi
Never mind that they were responding to Cardassian attacks, right Timo? They should have just let themselves be murdered in their beds by Cardassian terrorists in the name of "peace".

Even Nechayev didn't buy that.

“Believe me Captain, if I lived that close to the Cardassians, I'd sleep with a phaser under my pillow too."


Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Mage wrote: View Post
The Maquis were right in there cause. The Federation had no right to just give away those colonies without atleast asking what the people who life there think about it.
Actually, the Federation had every right.

And if you recall from the TNG episode which established the Maquis as a concept, the colonists WERE asked about it - and it was their bloody idea to stay in the DMZ in the first place! They knew full well that they would be living under Cardassian rule. They insisted on it!
No, they were summarily TOLD what was going to happen, despite their protests. The Federation never took their rights or desires into consideration when crafting the treaty.

It's like if the US suddenly ceeded Texas back to Mexico to settle some dispute and simply ordered the Texans to move out.

Do you think they would take that laying down?

No. Nor should they.

Timo wrote: View Post
The colonists are quite free to feel "angry" or "not happy" or whatever about the situation. If they decide to start an armed rebellion over it, their homes deserve to burn brightly.
Your fascism is showing again, Timo. The first duty of ANY government is to protect the lives, rights and property of it's citizens against foreign aggression.

What happened to sense of proportion? In the Trek universe, these people belong to a mental hospital. In our universe, they would be jailed for years, and even if their territories were later reacquired by their native country, the lunatics who had served their sentences would hopefully be prevented from trying to benefit from their crimes by banning them from ever getting that land back.
Or they would be hailed as great national heroes if they succeeded, and become known by names like the Founding Fathers.

Timo wrote: View Post
people deserve to die and be brutalized because they stand up for themselves
That's just one step removed from people murdering their own female relatives because a "principle" must be upheld.

Standing up for themselves, indeed - a more selfish act could not be imagined. The reasons for staying are ridiculous, the obstacles to leaving nonexistent, and what is gained by resistance? Far less than nothing, as the stupidity dictates the loss of everything that could be saved by walking away. These testosterone-drunk men yearning for a fight are raping their own wives there, strangling their own daughters, mutilating their own goldfish and mashing up their precious butterfly collections, in addition to burning their own crops.

The Maquis really fought for the goals of the Central Command, so that makes them doubly the traitors to their homes and ideals. Was there something in the groundwater that gave them fractional IQs? Perhaps Cardassia had started the poisoning campaign earlier than we thought?

Timo Saloniemi
Ok, now I know either you are trolling or have one sick mind (or both).

Pack up your stuff...I have just decreed YOU don't need to have and live wherever it is you do. See how YOU like having your property and life stolen from you.
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Old August 5 2012, 08:50 AM   #42
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

sonak wrote: View Post
Mage wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
the Federation.


Peace trumps some random pieces of land.


And in the 24th century, where your "home" is just doesn't really matter. The UFP is a utopia where all your basic needs are provided for and you can work as whatever you want.

It's not like now where relocation might mean having to find a new job, a new house, etc.



The Maquis "cause" was just silly.

Silly? These people had made lives for themselves there. If you were suddenly told that the home you lived in was going to be taken from you, the home where you are happy and want to spend your life, you don't just say 'well that's just super, where do I sign up?'. Even if your government was going to pay for a new house, give you a job and feed you. You are happy where you are.

The Maquis were right in there cause. The Federation had no right to just give away those colonies without atleast asking what the people who life there think about it. You talk about Utopia (and as Sisko said, only the coreworlds have real Utopia, the colonies still have to struggle to maintain themselves). In a Utopian society, everybody matters. No one is forced into doing anything they don't want. So by forcing to settlers into abandoning their homes, the Federation is basicly showing their true colors.

Perhaps the attitude of doing what you are told works for Starfleet officers, but a civilian will struggle with that sort of forced relocation. Hell, even Starfleet officers saw how wrong it was and decided to join up.

1. Yes I'd be fine with moving, if we're talking in the context of a 24th century society where my needs are provided for and I'd be provided with a new home, and if it meant peace. Some random piece of property isn't worth a war. (I realize that it didn't exactly bring peace here, but I mean hypothetical or potential peace)

2. The Federation had EVERY right to do what they did. They're a democracy whose legitimately elected leaders made a legal treaty with another government, and I assume the treaty had broad support outside of that small minority of colonists.


A free society doesn't mean that nobody ever has to do anything they don't want to. That's more like anarchy.

Anarchy is a misunderstood concept. Literally, it means nothing more and nothing less then not believing in the benefits of a single ruler or rulingbody. End of story. All the other horror stories connected to anarchy are the result of punk teenagers in the (mostly) the UK, who had no sense of identity and used a misinterpreted version of anarchy as something to rally behind, thinking it ment they could plunder, riot and be violent. That's not what anarchy is.

And just because leaders are chosen by the people, doesn't automatically mean that all there actions are just and right. Just look at history to see how that has worked out so well over the centuries.

And honoustly people, some of the reactions of people in this thread.... It's just and right that these colonists were burned for not listening to their government?? That's not really the message of understanding and having respect for others and their opinions that Trek is teaching us.
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Old August 5 2012, 08:53 AM   #43
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

sonak wrote: View Post
Some random piece of property isn't worth a war.

Isn't that basicly what happened with the war for independence in the United States? When the colonies said we want to be independant? When England said no? And then the colonists and England went to war? Over a random piece of property...?

Not trying to start a flame-war here, just playing advocate to the devil. But it seems a bit weird that some people are judging the Maquis for something that other leaders or groups of rebels have been praised for in the past.
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Old August 5 2012, 09:12 AM   #44
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

Governments tend to have provisions for resuming private land, so its questionable that the Federation had no right to hand over planets to the Cardassians. Not to mention that these planets were in a disputed region, which brings in the question whether the Federation or the Cardassians had the right to settle on some of these planets at all.

I feel sorry for those who where negative impacted by the treaty, and maybe the Federation did give up too much in the Treaty. In the end the Federation was looking to end the risk of a restart of a war against the Cardassians while at the time there was instability in the Klingon Empire, the Romulan Star Empire had returned to prominence and was throwing its weight around, and Borg had also wandered in, destroyed a colony, dozens of ships and nearly took Earth. So the few in the DMZ were sacrificed for the greater security of many.
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Old August 5 2012, 10:08 AM   #45
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
starburst wrote: View Post
But would you want to give up your home, I mean some of us might be willing to even if begrudgingly, but some who have spent years building a life on those colonies would be far less likely to want to up sticks and move (and going back to my analogy they had every reason to, the Cardassians are hardly Canadian or Mexican!)
I do love my home, but if I was presented with a good enough reason for moving, I'd take it. I certainly wouldn't become a terrorist against the government. In the end, a home is four walls and a ceiling surrounding all your stuff. Certainly not worth armed rebellion.
I wasnt advocating terrorism, only that people wouldnt be happy and may choose to say...not every colonist which decided to upsticks behind will have become a member of the Maquis. Some of them may have even gotten on fairly well with their new Cardassain overlords, at least until the Dominion War broke out.
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