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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old August 28 2012, 09:38 PM   #1
Nacluv
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"the thinking man's Star Trek" - Why?

First of all, I have probably not seen even half of DS9. I'm however planning to see more soon when I'm done with my third, nocturnal TNG marathon.

However, all over the web I see DS9 being epithetized as "the thinking man's Star Trek" by its fans. I do not demur to that characterization, absolutely not, it's just that such a title indicates a perceived dearth of it in the other shows, which couldn't be more wrong concerning the predecessors.

I find VOY and ENT to be crappy and lacking in so many different squadrons that the intravenous essence of Star Trek is gone.

DS9 however is a fine show with the prevalence of political intrigues and moral dilemmas. Yet, of the episodes I've seen as a kid and adult, I do not find DS9 (only in collation) to be so multi-layeres, astute or elliptic such as TNG and especially TOS. Beneath the obivous layers of allegories and gists, there was not to rarely an intimate backyard of other meanings and straws to discern. I do not remember DS9 as being entirely concordant in volumes there. As I said, this is only in comparison.

Nevertheless, my question is: How come people frequently refer to DS9 as "thinking man's Star Trek" while they do not title the other shows like that? Are there any specific reasons for this or is it just an Internet phenomenon e.g. one person alluded to it like that once and then others started doing it too? Or has these people only seen DS9, VOY and ENT.

I'm not aversing it's warrancy of that characterization, I'm just wondering why those people don't seem to descry the other series like that.
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Old August 28 2012, 09:53 PM   #2
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Re: "the thinking man's Star Trek" - Why?

I've never seen or heard of DS9 being referred to as "The Thinking Man's Star Trek" that I recall.

A couple of things that set DS9 apart:

1. Beyond S3 it becomes quite serialized, and does a pretty good job of not contradicting it's own Continuity most of the time
2. DS9 had darker portrayals then the other series (Though ENT S3 did also potray some unexpected darkness). There was some heavy stuff that occurred throught the 7 seasons, and often (Though, not always, there still was a fair amount that was dropped/forgotten about when the episode ended), there was reprecussions that flowed through to future episodes, unlike the Other Series, which almost always forgot about what happened in previous episodes.
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Old August 28 2012, 10:01 PM   #3
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Re: "the thinking man's Star Trek" - Why?

Can't say I've heard of DSN referred to as the thinking mans Trek either.
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Old August 28 2012, 10:27 PM   #4
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Re: "the thinking man's Star Trek" - Why?

Watch the entire series and decide for yourself.
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Old August 28 2012, 10:29 PM   #5
Nacluv
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Re: "the thinking man's Star Trek" - Why?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Can't say I've heard of DSN referred to as the thinking mans Trek either.
Not ubiquitously but if you google the phrase you'll see that most results adhere to DS9. If you ignore some book reviews, all results adhere to DS9.

"the thinking man's star trek"
https://www.google.se/search?hl=sv&s...1c.GmDrkHYPFzY



Just listen to this. This guy insinuates it's a very usual demarcation of the show.
I too, liked all the series from TOS to Enterprise and actually found Enterprise to be surprisingly good. My favourite is ST: DS9 - known as "the thinking man's Star Trek". DS9 is probably the "heaviest" out of all the series. For sheer entertainment and having the sexiest crew, TNG wins hands down.
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/fo...TID=62143&PN=2


And watch out for/ignore the 12th result. Just another rant by me.
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Old August 28 2012, 10:37 PM   #6
Tora Ziyal
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Re: "the thinking man's Star Trek" - Why?

I hadn't heard the phrase, either. If we're going to use it, I think it applies just as much to parts of TNG. And IMO, it's a compliment, not an epithet.
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Old August 28 2012, 10:43 PM   #7
Nacluv
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Re: "the thinking man's Star Trek" - Why?

Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
I hadn't heard the phrase, either. If we're going to use it, I think it applies just as much to parts of TNG. And IMO, it's a compliment, not an epithet.
Sorry. In my language, an epithet is a neutral term, an attribute, a characterization. Not any negative connotations whatsoever.
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Old August 29 2012, 01:32 AM   #8
Tora Ziyal
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Re: "the thinking man's Star Trek" - Why?

Nacluv wrote: View Post
Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
I hadn't heard the phrase, either. If we're going to use it, I think it applies just as much to parts of TNG. And IMO, it's a compliment, not an epithet.
Sorry. In my language, an epithet is a neutral term, an attribute, a characterization. Not any negative connotations whatsoever.
I'm used to hearing it used negatively -- for instance, describing certain words as racial epithets. But I just checked the dictionary, and it can be used neutrally in English, too, just as you describe. I learned something new this evening!
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Old August 29 2012, 01:51 AM   #9
Harvey
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Re: "the thinking man's Star Trek" - Why?

I think it's the best of the Rick Berman-produced shows, but I've never heard it called "the thinking man's Star Trek" until now.
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Old August 29 2012, 02:31 AM   #10
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Re: "the thinking man's Star Trek" - Why?

It's possible that if it is being considered the "Thinking man's Star Trek" that it is mainly due to the way the show forces the character's to face the consequences of their actions in an arc format. Things don't just go away after the credit's roll. The issues will usually resurface in some other facet that forces the audience to file a certain situation or decision made in their memory because it will likely drive the story at a later date.

In the other shows we generally had a formulaic teaser, introduction of a situation, a critical juncture where the situation becomes almost unmanageable and then a dramatic solution. Toss in a little levity on the bridge and the lesson learned for the day and warp to the next episode.
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Old August 29 2012, 05:31 AM   #11
heavylids
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Re: "the thinking man's Star Trek" - Why?

Like a lot of people on here, I have never heard DS9 referred to that way. But even if it was, I don't see how it would be the "thinking man's" Trek.
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Old August 29 2012, 07:05 AM   #12
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Re: "the thinking man's Star Trek" - Why?

Story arcs and politics. I put it down to that. I don't think it's particularly intellectual.
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Old August 29 2012, 10:31 AM   #13
Nacluv
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Re: "the thinking man's Star Trek" - Why?

I guess you are right. Another possibility I've thought of is that the intrigues, allegories and the punchlines are sometimes very lucid and well-exposed. While TNG and TOS are certainly not complicated, they do tend to be comparatively more subtle and somewhat obfuscatory and nebulous while I've found DS9 often seems more limpid on this point.

Not all people digests the cerebral attributes of TOS and TNG, but since it's more emphasized in DS9, maybe DS9 is a little more perceivable to more people?

I always thought of DS9 and TNG as two different secessions of the original series. TNG I think inherited the conceptual strength to more dispersive extents than DS9, while DS9 augmented the space opera elements of the original series which were diminished in its older sibling. TOS was a melange of space opera and "hard science fiction" while DS9 and TNG respectively emphasized one of these things more than the other.
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Old August 29 2012, 11:21 AM   #14
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Re: "the thinking man's Star Trek" - Why?

Nacluv wrote: View Post

Not all people digests the cerebral attributes of TOS and TNG, but since it's more emphasized in DS9, maybe DS9 is a little more perceivable to more people?
Well there is more subtext in TOS. Whereas DS9 flat out told us "this is subtext". Which made it a lot less sutexty.
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Old August 29 2012, 12:34 PM   #15
Nacluv
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Re: "the thinking man's Star Trek" - Why?

teacake wrote: View Post
Nacluv wrote: View Post

Not all people digests the cerebral attributes of TOS and TNG, but since it's more emphasized in DS9, maybe DS9 is a little more perceivable to more people?
Well there is more subtext in TOS. Whereas DS9 flat out told us "this is subtext". Which made it a lot less sutexty.
So I guess, it's obtuse people who calls DS9 "the thinking man's Star Trek"? Is that what you mean?

Unless the quality of what DS9 yells us straight to our faces is in parity with the quality of that which TOS whispers to us.

Would you say that although it's is so lambently elucidated in DS9, that the overall quality of those thoughts, ideas and meanings are on par with TOS or TNG? Or is DS9, not only more expository, but also more frivolous?
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