Farscape or Babylon 5?

[Harvey]

Perhaps you would like to spoiler code some of that? You're free to your opinion, of course, but it seems rather thoughtless to describe in some detail the endgame of a series that the original poster has not seen.

[Sindatur]

@stj, though much of your post is snippets, that may not be easily followed by someone unfamiliar with the Series, there's an awful lot of spoilers in there, you should consider "spoilering" most of the first half of your post, as the OP makes clear he hasn't watched either series all the way through yet.

[Satyrquaze]

Despite having seen next to nothing of Farscape I'm quite comfortable fully recommending Babylon 5.

[Lindley]

stj wrote:

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As for the arbitrariness of the plotting, the return to Earth, which should have been the climax of the Crichton's story, was suddenly turned into the discovery that they had to leave Earth. Way to piss on years of motivation folks.

Made sense to me. If he had returned in the first year or even the second, maybe he could have made it work. By year four, he's no longer a fish out of water on Moya; now, he's a fish out of water on Earth. I think the show would have been too pat if "returning to Earth" had been the conclusion. Furthermore, the avoidance of that ending is foreshadowed all through season 3 with the assertion that "Earth is unprepared!" in the opening credits.

The amazing fact that Skarran intelligence depended upon a flower that didn't grow on their home planet asks how they ever got out into space.

There's some fairly interesting backstory on that I read somewhere. It's not in the show itself though. As I recall it ties in how Jewel's people and Peacekeepers are related to Humans.

Then we discover that the flower does grown naturally...on Earth. Uh huh.

Does it? We don't really know. John made an offhand joke about it growing in his grandma's garden. Don't know if that's true or just John's sense of wimsy, but it caused a lot of trouble....

[Relayer1]

Greg Cox wrote:

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Thanks for playing.

You know Greg, just sometimes I'll post not because I'm making a considered statement, but because I'm in a bit of a snarky or offhand mood and then I'll regret it. I didn't exactly advance the discussion much did I ?

I didn't watch Farscape so it may not be 'junk'. The lack of Space Opera on TV bothers me and seeing the show listed I tried a couple of episodes. I really couldn't get into it - it may have been brilliant - I'll never know. I had a similar experience with Andromeda (but sat through a LOT more episodes).

B5 I watched religiously - I am still impressed with what JMS achieved overall. The logistics, the amount written by him, the long arc, the adult approach and how much of the money actually made it to the screen.

However, with the exceptions of Anreas Katsulas, Peter Jurasik and Stephen Furst, I have to say it had one of the most inept main casts I have ever seen (Bruce Boxleitner was meant to be an improvement ? Tracy Scoggins ?). The big arcs owed much to Lord Of The Rings and many government conspiracy takeover stories and (no fault of JMS) the rushed resolution followed by commissioning another season did it no favours. Having said that, he did botch it - the Earthdome arc should have been resolved first and the Shadow arc should have closed the season, allowing it more room.

B5 was interesting, should probably have been more impotant and deserved a little more respect from me. Especially as a friend co-wrote the security manual.

Please disregard my earlier post.

[stj]

Lindley wrote:

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Made sense to me. If he had returned in the first year or even the second, maybe he could have made it work. By year four, he's no longer a fish out of water on Moya; now, he's a fish out of water on Earth. I think the show would have been too pat if "returning to Earth" had been the conclusion. Furthermore, the avoidance of that ending is foreshadowed all through season 3 with the assertion that "Earth is unprepared!" in the opening credits.

There's some fairly interesting backstory on that I read somewhere. It's not in the show itself though. As I recall it ties in how Jewel's people and Peacekeepers are related to Humans.

Does it? We don't really know. John made an offhand joke about it growing in his grandma's garden. Don't know if that's true or just John's sense of wimsy, but it caused a lot of trouble....

The foreshadowing is that Crichton should prepare Earth, which he doesn't. Basically he just leaves. In principle you could make the case that the series could have more than one climax, that the climax of Crichton's return to Earth wouldn't end the series. But it still should have been a climax. In terms of articulating some of the themes the writers wanted the show to be about, that episode was one of the most important they ever did. And in terms of being a climax, to a massive part of Crichton's arc, it should have been, well, you know, climactic. But nobody else likes the episode. It's anticlimactic.

[Greg Cox]

Relayer1 wrote:

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You know Greg, just sometimes I'll post not because I'm making a considered statement, but because I'm in a bit of a snarky or offhand mood and then I'll regret it. I didn't exactly advance the discussion much did I

Well, I'll admit to a bit of snark there myself, but your original post did seem like a bit of drive-by!

[Goji]

stj wrote:

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The foreshadowing is that Crichton should prepare Earth, which he doesn't. Basically he just leaves. In principle you could make the case that the series could have more than one climax, that the climax of Crichton's return to Earth wouldn't end the series. But it still should have been a climax. In terms of articulating some of the themes the writers wanted the show to be about, that episode was one of the most important they ever did. And in terms of being a climax, to a massive part of Crichton's arc, it should have been, well, you know, climactic. But nobody else likes the episode. It's anticlimactic.

I think it's a fantastic episode, one of my favorites of the series. As for foreshadowing, I humbly submit the whole third season finale, "Dog With Two Bones", during which Crichton, with the help of Noranti, is forced to face his darkest fears about what could happen if he returned to Earth. Including the loss of Aeryn, who he comes to accept as meaning more to him now than Earth does (she being the "real bone" in the titular metaphor), and an invasion by Scorpius and the Peacekeepers that kills his closest friends and family.

Which ultimately comes to pass in a way in "Terra Firma", when a Skreeth sent by Grayza succeeds in killing his childhood friend and his wife, and very nearly does the same to Crichton's whole family. After which, yeah, he "just leaves"... because Grayza and the whole Peacekeeper Army is hot on his tail, as evidenced by the Skreeth. Getting the hell away from Earth removes or at least diminishes Grayza's interest in it.

As for "preparing Earth"... how, exactly? Crichton and co. don't have the firepower to repel a Peacekeeper or Scarran invasion on their own. If they did, they wouldn't have spent three years on the run. How could they, alone, prepare a backwards planet to fight not one but TWO ultra powerful empires?

To summarize, by the end of Season 3 John realizes that Aeryn > Earth (stated in "Dog With Two Bones", obvious to anyone paying attention to Ben Browder's and Claudia Black's acting) and staying on Earth anyway = its likely destruction by Peacekeepers and/or Scarrans (implied in "Into the Lion's Den Part 2", "Dog With Two Bones", and almost occurs for reals in "Bad Timing").

If this story, for whatever reason, didn't work for you, fine. But it *was* all there and for me, it worked splendidly.

Also, Farscape rocks.

[stj]

Crichton had already decided it was too dangerous to go to Earth and he loved Aeryn more, but he went anyway? Hmm. I know Crichton was inconsistently portrayed as really brilliant sometimes and really foolish sometimes but this seems really extreme. Glad it worked for you. As I recall, very few other people felt the visit to Earth was a dramatic high point, though.

[Lindley]

stj wrote:

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Crichton had already decided it was too dangerous to go to Earth and he loved Aeryn more, but he went anyway?

He didn't go intentionally, if you recall. But once he was there, how could he resist giving it a shot?

[stj]

^^^
I had forgotten. Some of the wilder plot twists have fallen right out of my head!

[Goji]

Lindley wrote:

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He didn't go intentionally, if you recall. But once he was there, how could he resist giving it a shot?

Exactly. He got sucked down a wormhole that happened to lead to Earth in "Unrealized Reality", only actually landed in the next episode because he discovered he'd arrived in the past and was afraid he may have altered the future by doing so (and he had, so he tried to fix it) and by the time he made it back to present-day, Moya had already been spotted and boarded by several humans, including his own father. Crichton even admits that going to Earth was an accident, and it doesn't seem like he spends more than a few days there.

As for the reputation of the episode, it's always been my understanding that it is well liked. My friends and I appreciate it, and on this website it is ranked 17th out of 90 for the whole series, and that's pretty damn high. This review also seems quite positive on the whole.

Dissenting opinions are welcome, of course, but I'm not seeing how they are the consensus here.

[Satyrquaze]

As most people on here currently debating what sounds like a fairly major plot point of Farscape with no end in sight, I think it's fairly obvious that the OP should choose B5.

[Greg Cox]

Satyrquaze wrote:

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As most people on here currently debating what sounds like a fairly major plot point of Farscape with no end in sight, I think it's fairly obvious that the OP should choose B5.

I don't know. That depends on how much plot matters to you. There's also character, setting, mood, humor, visuals, music, dialogue . . . .

If plot was all that mattered, then reading a synopsis would be the same as watching the show!

[stj]

^^^Correct. I value coherent plots and themes a lot, but the first time around the very original visuals and music and the Crichtonisms, and most of all, the shameless gusto in the series still made it an enthralling experience. I was shocked at how unwatchable I found it the second time. I didn't expect that at all. If you read the last coded plot point recapped, you'll see what I mean by plotting problems. But that sort of thing sure makes a strong first impression. It's just when you start to think about it...

As to the popularity of the Earth episode, it didn't get any praise on any of the bbs I looked at when it first aired. The sources cited probably give a better picture of its real popularity beyond the self selected sample of contemporaneous posters.