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Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

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Old April 9 2013, 02:26 PM   #931
Snatcher42
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

^ I believe Kirk did not see The Gathering?
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Old April 9 2013, 02:42 PM   #932
DalekJim
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
I'm betting that Londo is 3-4 episodes away at most from becoming puppet Londo. I was really hoping that would happen off screen, after season 5, but it looks like it won't. I'll probably have to watch atleast an episode or two with my favorite character just being a puppet. Thats going to suck, but besides that I'm interested in seeing what happens next. this was a good episode.
The build-up and pay-off of that storyline is some of the most powerful stuff in the show.
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Old April 9 2013, 07:02 PM   #933
kirk55555
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

Snatcher42 wrote: View Post
^ I believe Kirk did not see The Gathering?
Nope, I didn't get to see it. I had assumed it was a call back to it, though.

Now, on to the episodes I watched.

And All My Dreams, Torn Asunder - Londo's reaction to the evidence against the Centauri was interesting. The Centauri explination for what was happenening was stupid, even if I didn't already know they were definately responsible. I liked seeing G'Kar and Londo go to Centauri Prime, and g'Kar had some funny banter with the Centauri, as always. I knew Garibaldi would screw up, but its weird no one besides his girlfriend and Zach have figured out whats wrong with him. How many times can he make lame excuses and get away with it? Sheridan losing it with the ambassadors was great, they deserved his anger. It was cool to see Londo stand up for G'Kar, even if it meant being put in the same cell as him. Overall, this was a good episode.

Movements of Fire and Shadow - The whole of B5 is filled with killers and security officer's who aren't great at their job. I know its a big station, but if it hadn't been for the end of the war next episode, every Centauri on B5 would probably have ended up dead before too long. A new Earth/Minbari ship sounds interesting. I figured that they must start running low on White Star's eventually. G'kar's plan to get Londo out of the cell was clever and funny. Lyta showed she can be pretty vicious when she wants to be. The pods that were controlling some Centauri ships were interesting. The drazi/Narn attack was pretty bad. I know that the Centauri have done stuff like that, but I thought that they might atleat pretend they weren't as bad as the Centauri. Overall, this was a pretty good episode.

The Fall of Centauri Prime - I'm just going to say it right away. I hated this episode. Don't get me wrong, for what it had to do (set in motion the events seen earlier) it wasn't bad, but the overall story of Londo's fate sucks, so this story was still not good. Londo and G'Kar had great performances, especially in their last scene together before Londo becomes a puppet. But, their talent is wasted in such a crappy plot. Having a short Londo montage at the end felt like a kick in the face, and a borderline taunting of Londo's fans by JMS. This whole Londo fate plot has been bad from the beginning, from the spoilers to the very idea. Its easily the worst plot in B5, and the stupidest character stuff. The fact that Londo is my favorite character makes it even worse. JMS couldn't have written a worse plot for Londo if he tried. I'm also wondering what JMS has against San Diego This was a horrible way for my favorite character to end up, and knowing it ahead of time just meant i had more time to be angry about it. This isn't the worst B5 episode by far (That honor still belongs to Deconstruction of Falling Stars) but its definately one I hate. Hopefully the last episodes will be good, and I hope Londo just doesn;'t get shown again.
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Old April 9 2013, 07:26 PM   #934
flavaflav
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
Why would they bother giving him any more screen time, atleast past him making announcements for his Shadow overlords? We know that whatever he does he ends up as a broken old man who only gets kind of redeemed at the end, after almost 20 years of siding with evil. There is no room for any character growth, we know who he turns out to be.
heh. so much for how you thought it would shake out. there was a ton of character growth for Londo between "War Without End" and "The Fall of Centauri Prime". He has saved his planet twice. After Sheridan, he is the second most responsible individual for the rise of the Interstallar Alliance (bringing the League of Non-Aligned Worlds together to back Sheridan against Earth). In the end, Londo is not siding with evil Shadow overlords. He has no choice but to sacrifice his freedom to save his planet and bide his time till he can act. 20 years of siding with evil? not at all. quite the opposite.
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Old April 9 2013, 07:33 PM   #935
kirk55555
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

I got some details wrong, but it was still stupid. His character development was almost pointless in the end, since its not going to effect things anymore. He should have a choice of sacrificeing his freedom, but since JMS made the shadows allies all powerful on Centauri Prime (they literally are more powerful than the actual shadows at this point when it comes to controlling people) there wasn't one. Londo got defeated by bad writing. But, since JMS would go on to defeat Superman, Spider-Man and Wonder Woman with even worse writing, I guess Londo got off easy. Atleast Londo's "deal with the devil" didn't make him lose a wife, or cause him to take a very lame walking trip around Centauri Prime, or erase him from existence and bring him back dressed like a moron and with a new horrible backstory. Compared to what JMS would do later to some characters, Londo's horrible story arc almost seems just mediocre (I know the comic stuff is a bit different, but since thats how I knew JMS before B5, his comic book work is one of the things I think about when it comes to his writing in general).
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Old April 9 2013, 08:16 PM   #936
Jan
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

Wow...I thought the scene where Londo submitted to the Keeper was one of the most effective and touching scenes since he watched the bombing of the Narn homeworld.

Sorry you don't like it but B5 is about choices and consequences and Londo had to face the consequences of everything he'd done. There ain't no 'happily ever after' on this show...well, almost.

Jan
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Old April 9 2013, 08:46 PM   #937
Gov Karnstein
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

Jan wrote: View Post
Wow...I thought the scene where Londo submitted to the Keeper was one of the most effective and touching scenes since he watched the bombing of the Narn homeworld.

Sorry you don't like it but B5 is about choices and consequences and Londo had to face the consequences of everything he'd done. There ain't no 'happily ever after' on this show...well, almost.

Jan
Then, to go back to 'Voice in the Wilderness' and Londo's wish as a young Centauri to die on his feet doing something noble, brave, and foolish is achieved in his defying the keeper and helping Delenn and Sheridan escape.
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Old April 9 2013, 08:59 PM   #938
Jan
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
Then, to go back to 'Voice in the Wilderness' and Londo's wish as a young Centauri to die on his feet doing something noble, brave, and foolish is achieved in his defying the keeper and helping Delenn and Sheridan escape.
Indeed. All of Londos wishes came true. That's the tragedy.

Once again, Kirk was told exactly what would happen, well in advance. Bad writing? I think not. Most of the time when somebody complains of 'bad writing' it can usually be translated as 'But that's now the way I *wanted* it to happen!"

Jan
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Old April 9 2013, 10:17 PM   #939
Aeon
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

All the character development pointless? Because of that, Londo has now the courage to say yes to the Drakh and sacrifice himself for the greater good of the Centauri Prime, even though he will know that he will be a prisoner for the rest of his life, isolated from his friends and happiness. And after roughly 18 years from that point he will save Sheridan and Delenn because he understands that is his only chance for a true redemption. The current Londo has that will power. I wouldn't say the man from the first season would do the same things.

Like many have already said, Londo is indeed a tragic character. He is essentially one of the good guys, who just made some really bad choices to gain power, but he still has to pay the price for his actions. He is likeable and you don't want to see him suffer nor make all those bad choices, but that just makes the resolution more emotional and powerful.
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Old April 9 2013, 10:52 PM   #940
Professor Zoom
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
The Fall of Centauri Prime - I'm just going to say it right away. I hated this episode. Don't get me wrong, for what it had to do (set in motion the events seen earlier) it wasn't bad, but the overall story of Londo's fate sucks, so this story was still not good. Londo and G'Kar had great performances, especially in their last scene together before Londo becomes a puppet. But, their talent is wasted in such a crappy plot. Having a short Londo montage at the end felt like a kick in the face, and a borderline taunting of Londo's fans by JMS. This whole Londo fate plot has been bad from the beginning, from the spoilers to the very idea. Its easily the worst plot in B5, and the stupidest character stuff. The fact that Londo is my favorite character makes it even worse. JMS couldn't have written a worse plot for Londo if he tried.
I think that's the sole reason you don't like the plot. And that's why it's "bad."

It's a great story. It's a tragic story. The Londo we met in Season One would NEVER have done something like this, for the greater good. One of the reasons its great is because it IS tragic. Star Trek would never have gone there. Everyone lives happily ever after. Except for Tasha.

Londo's story is deeply moving. I'm sorry you think it's bad. But it's not. It's just not. You don't like it because you think your favorite characters have to win all the time. That's not life. That's not good fiction.
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Old April 9 2013, 10:55 PM   #941
kirk55555
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

I didn't think it was emotionally powerful at all. It was just Londo going out with a wimper. Atleast if they hadn't spoiled it I could have been surprised, and it would have had that going for it. Spoiling it was definately bad writing, and the idea itself was stupid. If I'm being very fair, it was well written for what it was. The idea was so bad that I don't think it could be written any better, since the core idea was so stupid. That said, its all opinion. I didn't like it, and not because Londo's fate was bad. I didn't need him to have a happy ending, even though he's my favorite character. I just wish it wasn't a really stupid ending.

Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
kirk55555 wrote: View Post
The Fall of Centauri Prime - I'm just going to say it right away. I hated this episode. Don't get me wrong, for what it had to do (set in motion the events seen earlier) it wasn't bad, but the overall story of Londo's fate sucks, so this story was still not good. Londo and G'Kar had great performances, especially in their last scene together before Londo becomes a puppet. But, their talent is wasted in such a crappy plot. Having a short Londo montage at the end felt like a kick in the face, and a borderline taunting of Londo's fans by JMS. This whole Londo fate plot has been bad from the beginning, from the spoilers to the very idea. Its easily the worst plot in B5, and the stupidest character stuff. The fact that Londo is my favorite character makes it even worse. JMS couldn't have written a worse plot for Londo if he tried.
I think that's the sole reason you don't like the plot. And that's why it's "bad."

It's a great story. It's a tragic story. The Londo we met in Season One would NEVER have done something like this, for the greater good. One of the reasons its great is because it IS tragic. Star Trek would never have gone there. Everyone lives happily ever after. Except for Tasha.

Londo's story is deeply moving. I'm sorry you think it's bad. But it's not. It's just not. You don't like it because you think your favorite characters have to win all the time. That's not life. That's not good fiction.
You know, I think you're being exactly what you accuse me of being. You like Londo's plot, so you think that automatically makes it great. It doesn't. Its all subjective. Londo ended up being controlled by a space bug because the shadows allies are more powerful then the shadows themselves. It was just bad, atleast to me. Just because you disagree doesn't make you anymore right than I am. Everything I say is my opinion. I'm not saying you have to agree with me, or that my opinion is THE opinion. To me, it was horrible, and its not good just because you think it is, or because you think I need characters to always have a hapopy ending, which I don't. Sure, I prefer it, and I'm not a huge fan of tragic endings anyway, but it can be done well. JMS did not do it well in my opinion. I'm not trying to say you are wrong, because unlike some people I don't do that. To me, its horrible writing. Just because you don't agree doesn't make you objectively right in saying this was good writing.
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Old April 9 2013, 11:11 PM   #942
Jan
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
Its all subjective. Londo ended up being controlled by a space bug because the shadows allies are more powerful then the shadows themselves.
That's twice you've said that. Where on earth did you get that impression? And why?

Jan
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Old April 9 2013, 11:18 PM   #943
kirk55555
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

The shadows didn't put bombs all over a planet with no one knowing or put space bugs on planetary leaders. From a outright War perspective the Shadows were more powerful than their allies obviously, but the allies are capable of stuff the shadows weren't, and I'd say the ability to control/threaten a whole planet like that makes them more powerful at what they do (behind the scenes evil and manipulation as opposed to outright conflict) than their masters, even though the Shadows were supposed to be good at stuff like that. The allies just seem to have been written as almost all powerful, atleast in their manipulations of the centauri, and not even the Shadows were able to do that.
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Old April 9 2013, 11:45 PM   #944
Jan
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

You seem to have forgotten that they Shadows killed plenty of colonies and planets on their own. And rather than using Keepers, all we know for sure is that they manipulated the Psi Corps which in turn did quite a bit of manipulating of their own. And they manipulated the other races to go to war with each other. Might those leaders have had Keepers? We don't know. The Drakh are still working behind the scenes, same as they always have. But they knew that the only thing they could hold over Londo was the safety of his people.

Jan
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Old April 10 2013, 03:47 AM   #945
JoeD80
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

Sorry you didn't like it Kirk, but in this case you are wrong about it being "stupid." That's not a subjective opinion statement. Londo sacrificed himself. It had nothing to do with how powerful the aliens were. The Centauri were the ones who had the bombs in the first place. The Narns are the ones who attacked. The Drazi helped set up the Alliance because they had the pods. The Centauri weren't making excuses for not knowing - the ships were unmanned. You're missing key connection points that are actually there in the story in your rush to claim it's bad writing.

The Shadows did control others when they seeded their ships everywhere - that's how G'Kar knew about them in the first place. And the organic ships - that's power the Drakh don't have that we see so far anyway. The Shadows are definitely more powerful.

Also - the Shadows' and Drakh's motives *were not the same*


Also, stop saying something was spoiled when you were wrong in almost every single detail of what was to come in the story.

Last edited by JoeD80; April 10 2013 at 04:05 AM. Reason: x
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