Farscape or Babylon 5?

[Reverend]

Aeon wrote:

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Indeed.

You'd think the fact that *everyone* in this thread is telling him exactly the same thing would at least make him stop and think, no?

Yeah, anyway, Grey 17 is pretty well known as one of the worst episodes of the whole series (of which there are few and it isn't even *that* bad) to the point where even JMS all but disowns it.

The Marcus/Neroon stuff is good, but for various reasons the whole Garibaldi side of the story just didn't come together at the writing stage and the poor execution of the creature just made it worse.

[kirk55555]

And the Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place - This was a good episode, and Londo was great in it, as always. Londo was harsh with Vir, but I liked how his plan worked out in the end. It was nice to hear that there is a resistance on earth to the president (who is actually more of a dictator at this point), and that not all humans on earth are idiots. Delenn got a bit annoying at the end, when she freaked out when Sheridan said he was thinking like the enemy. Trying to figure out what your enemy is going to do (aka thinking like the enemy) seems like a pretty important thing to do. But, I guess just randomly reacting to the enemy beats trying to figure out what they're doing and stop them before they do it I'm glad Londo saved Vir. I figured that his plan was not what he said it was. It was interesting seeing G'Kar on the narn homeworld, and the ending was weird, but it was an interesting scene. The music made it different, but it was a good scene. I'm glad that Londo didn't actually turn in G'Kar. Not that it would have mattered, since G'Kar obviously isn't going to die anytime soon. The fleet of white stars was cool. Anyway, this was a good episode, with Londo's stuff being especially good, and since it didn't involve any decisions regarding the shadows it wasn't even ruined by the fact that I know what happens to him (although I did know that G'kar and Vir would be fine, but I probably would have guessed that anyway). Also, I'm just stating what I think, when I talk about Londo stuff from now on don't be surprised if there is references to how much or little its involved/ruined by the idiotic spoiler. That said, I'm still not going to talk about the spoiler more than I already have out of context to specific episodes.

[flavaflav]

kirk55555 wrote:

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and the ending was weird, but it was an interesting scene. The music made it different, but it was a good scene.

this is my 2nd favorite scene in the series. i absolutely love the gospel song being played and it accompanies the Refa beat down real well.

the whole episode is really done well. one of my top 5.

this ep also sets a major arc in motion.

[Rye]

I've never seen Babylon 5, so I cannot speak for its quality. What I can tell you, is Farscape is by far the greatest sci-fi show I've watched in my life. It doesn't have the franchise or geek appeal as Star Trek, but it is an emotional rollercoaster through the lives of an unlikely crew. You very clearly watch all the characters develop, and see through the eyes of John as he loses his mind during their adventures. It can be a bit over-the-top at times, but it more then makes up for it with excellent acting, and writing.

I cannot tell you if Babylon 5 is good or not, but I can tell you that if you watch Farscape, you won't be disappointed. Farscape is also on Netflix instant-view, if you have a computer or TV capable of streaming it. It will probably be higher quality then a DVD, as well. They may not have season 4 (About two years ago when I watched it), but seasons 1-3 I know are on there.

EDIT: Oh wow, I did not know how long and old this thread was, so I was responding to the original post. My bad xD.

[JD]

Farscape is not streaming on Netflix any more. I searched for it last week and all I got was discs.

[Neroon]

Rye wrote:

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EDIT: Oh wow, I did not know how long and old this thread was, so I was responding to the original post. My bad xD.

No worries. It's rather nice to see a switch back to Farscape, since it was originally a part of the the thread. And I agree that it is an incredible show, one of my all-time favorites.

[kirk55555]

I watched a bunch of epsiodes the last few days, so this is a pretty big post.

Shadow Dancing - This was a good episode. Franklin's stuff was decent, although trying to talk down a crazy mugger was stupid. I liked the space battle, it was done well and had a good variety of ships. It was funny seeing Ivanova try to sleep in the weird minbari beds. Sheridan's wife returns at the end, and I knew something was up with her.

Z'Ha'Dum - I figured Anna was a shadow agent from the moment she returned. she might as well wear a sign that says "I'm a puppet of the shadows". I don't think sheridan should have been so mad that Delenn and Kosh hadn't told him that they couldn't confim that anna was dead. Knowing him at that time, he probably would have gone to Z'Ha'Dum and screwed the galaxy. Garibaldi and Sheridan couldn't have thought up a stupider secret code. I wasn't quite sure what they were saying, but they couldn't have been more obvious that they were telling each other something secret they didn't want Anna to hear. The scenes on the planet were interesting. Sheridan's message about trying to change the future was just stupid. "Maybe the future was caused by my taking Delenn's warning". Really? That was such a stupid thing to say. If he had taken her warning, which had caused the future, the future her wouldn't have warned him about z'Ha'Dum, since he wouldn't have gone there in the first place. Anyway, going there obviously didn't prevent that future (not that the future would have changed, the show was very clear on that point). The actual fate of Anna and the other crew members of the Icarus that wouldn't fight help the shadows was pretty bad. I figured they had done something to her. I liked sheridan's plan of blowing up part of the planet with the White Star. G'Kar's narration at the end was cool. This was a good episode, and good ending of the season.

The Hour of the Wolf - I originally thought that the centauri emperor would be some spoiled rich guy. In this episode, you learn he is completely insane (and this is just the tip of the iceberg, as the later episodes show). Londo's reaction to his craziness was great. The head collection was creepy. The new vorlon is different and hard to hear. The noise he makes behind his words keep making it hard for me to understand him, and this keeps happening in later episodes. kosh made noises, but was perfectly understandable. I guess how understandable a vorlon is depends on how evil they are, and as the next few episodes will show, Kosh seemed to have been the only good vorlon. I never thought that he'd be revealed to have been the friendly vorlon I guess they modified Lyta's body. I wonder if she can breathe underwater. Also, I'm guessing Vir lost weight? I'm going to assume so, because in this episode, and the next few, he looks like he's contracted some kind of wasting disease. He's actually kind of freaking me out. On Z'Ha'Dum, when they went to search for sheridan, they said that the eye was looking for them. I'm going to assume that this means that Sauron is one of the shadows Londo and Vir's scene near the end was great. I'd say they are justified in killing the emperor, he's making Caligula look like a great leader, and he does worse in the next few episodes. Overall, a good episode.

Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi? - The alien on Z'Ha'Dum (who is revealed to be the first one) is annoying, as are all his scenes this episode. It almost seems like people are actively blocking G'Kar's investigation. Seeing Londo interact with the crazy emperor is always interesting. Londo seemed shocked to see G'Kar. Garibaldi was losing it in his cell, and it looked like atleast one of his captor's was Psi Corp. If so, why would they need to ask him questions? Wouldn't they just read his mind? Londo and G'Kar's conversation was interesting. I wonder if Londo will keep his word. This was another very good episode.

The Summoning - The members of the centauri royal court really need to be taught a lesson. I get the crazy emperor getting enjoyment out of messing with G'kar but the centauri in general, or atleast the ones in power that we see, are pretty bad people too. I did like the joke about the torturers wanting to be called "pain technicians". The emperor is so crazy and evil that even Vir thinks he needs to die. I wonder, once again, why the vorlons sent Darth Vader to B5. I really hope that Kosh wasn't the big exception and every other vorlon is like this one. Although, since we learn that the vorlons are now going to start a campaign of mass murder to beat the shadows, I guess I have my answer as to wether Kosh was the exception or rule as to how vorlons act Garibaldi returns wrapped in plastic. I'm wondering about his return. He was in a room with weird lights, opens his eyes dramatically, and then ios later ejected from the ship so that he doesn't die, while the ship explodes with no other people leaving. I'm wondering if maybe he now has an evil personality, like Talia. It would explain the psi corps not just reading his mind, and the fact that his captors returned him seemingly unharmed but made sure they couldn't be captured. It may bnot turn out that way, but Garibaldi as a sleeper agent would fit in well with what has happened to him (although I'm not sure how long they'd need him to do that, but 2 weeks would probably be enough, especially since they're probably good at it). Its also possible he's weird because it looked like his fighter was stuck in a shadow vessel for awhile, and that the psi corp member was just an ally of the shadows. Or, it could be both. I wonder what Sheridan had ordered him to do? The vorlon fleet was huge, and they had atleast one gigantic ship (and dialog says they had a few). I guess you need a lot of ships to blow up planets. I'm wondering why the vorlon Darth vader didn't just build a moon size battle station The Centauri stuff is freaky (the emperor just gets crazier all the time) but entertaining. I figured G'Kar would get to the 39th lashing before giving up. Sheridan's return and speech were cool, and it seemed to put the idiots in the league of non-aligned worlds in line. Overall, this was a very good episode, and this season is off to a great start.

[Reverend]

Garibaldi and Sheridan couldn't have thought up a stupider secret code. I wasn't quite sure what they were saying, but they couldn't have been more obvious that they were telling each other something secret they didn't want Anna to hear.

Knowing something is being said that you don't quite get is a long way from knowing exactly *what* is being said, which is rather the point of a code phrase.

Sheridan's message about trying to change the future was just stupid. "Maybe the future was caused by my taking Delenn's warning". Really? That was such a stupid thing to say. If he had taken her warning, which had caused the future, the future her wouldn't have warned him about z'Ha'Dum, since he wouldn't have gone there in the first place.

What it really comes down to is that Sheridan saw an opportunity to end this in one fell swoop and took it. Trying to second guess what may or may not be a temporal paradox is an exercise in futility.

I guess they modified Lyta's body. I wonder if she can breathe underwater.

I think those are just for handling alternate atmospheres. They're not even a Vorlon thing as G'Kar has gill implants too, though you only ever see him use them in the pilot movie.

Also, I'm guessing Vir lost weight? I'm going to assume so, because in this episode, and the next few, he looks like he's contracted some kind of wasting disease. He's actually kind of freaking me out.

Not exactly, but close. Stephen Furst was diagnosed as diabetic around this time and IIRC, the way he tells it, it was a choice between loosing a lot of weight or having his foot amputated.

I guess you need a lot of ships to blow up planets.

Just one actually. They're called planet killers (for obvious reasons) and they're *HUGE*. Mostly the fleets with them are just there as escorts.

[Nagisa Furukawa]

kirk55555 wrote:

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Garibaldi and Sheridan couldn't have thought up a stupider secret code. I wasn't quite sure what they were saying

Sheridan was requesting two nukes to take to Z'ha'dum.

Sheridan's message about trying to change the future was just stupid. "Maybe the future was caused by my taking Delenn's warning". Really? That was such a stupid thing to say. If he had taken her warning, which had caused the future, the future her wouldn't have warned him about z'Ha'Dum, since he wouldn't have gone there in the first place.

Yeah, this is one of my absolute favorite eps of the show and the last 10 minutes were among the most exciting I've ever seen, but I've always thought this sounded fishy and awkwardly put there. I love the idea of Sheridan going to Z'ha'dum to save Centauri Prime, but I never thought his reasoning made much sense.

Kosh seemed to have been the only good vorlon. I never thought that he'd be revealed to have been the friendly vorlon

I really hope that Kosh wasn't the big exception and every other vorlon is like this one. Although, since we learn that the vorlons are now going to start a campaign of mass murder to beat the shadows, I guess I have my answer as to wether Kosh was the exception or rule as to how vorlons act

This is part of what makes Kosh's character so interesting to watch on rewatch. On first viewing, he's this vaguely interesting, sometimes frustrating, often irritating cryptic mentor who will occasionally say weird things that don't make much sense then not do anything. On second viewing, you see that he has an entire character arc; he's a traitor to his amoral, patronizing, father-knows-best culture, who actually comes to like the younger races rather than use them as pawns to the extent that he was willing to sacrifice his life to give them a chance.

[Reverend]

Yeah, I know I've said it elsewhere, but you can really see how much Kosh changed over the years by listening to what he says to G'Kar in 'Dust to Dust': -

And will you continue until there are no more Narns and no more Centauri? If both sides are dead, no one will care which side deserves the blame. It no longer matters who started it, G'Kar. It only matters who is suffering. What is there left for Narn if all of creation falls around us?

...No hope, no dream, no future, no life...unless we turn from the cycle of death toward something greater. If we are a dying people...let us die with honor by helping the others as no one else can.

...You cannot see the battle for what it is. We are fighting to save one another. We must realize we are not alone. We rise and fall together. And some of us must be sacrificed if all are to be saved. Because if we fail in this then none of us will be saved and the Narn will be only a memory.

Clearly he's talking as much about himself and his people as he is about G'Kar and the Narn. Indeed, compare that to what he said to Sinclair in the very first episode: -

- They are alone. They are a dying people. We should let them pass.
- Who? The Narn or the Centauri?
- Yes.

And then of course, there's his last words to Sheridan: -

I want you to know you were right. I didn't want to admit that. Just pride, I guess. You get my age, you get kind of set in your ways. It had to be done. Don't blame yourself for what happened later.

...It's too late for me. I'm sorry for what I did before. I knew what was ahead. I guess....I guess I was afraid. When you've lived as long as I have...you kind of get used to it.
I wish I could have done more for you. There's so much I should've said. Now it's too late. You're right. It's time you began fighting this war your way.

[JoeD80]

kirk55555 wrote:

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Franklin's stuff was decent, although trying to talk down a crazy mugger was stupid.

Addicts going through withdrawl don't always make the smartest decisions.

kirk55555 wrote:

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Sheridan's message about trying to change the future was just stupid. "Maybe the future was caused by my taking Delenn's warning". Really? That was such a stupid thing to say. If he had taken her warning, which had caused the future, the future her wouldn't have warned him about z'Ha'Dum, since he wouldn't have gone there in the first place.

Time travel isn't Sheridan's strong suit.

kirk55555 wrote:

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It almost seems like people are actively blocking G'Kar's investigation.

Remember, G'Kar only had sanctuary on Babylon 5. Anywhere else was fair game to capture him and the Centauri were willing to pay for that information.

[Snatcher42]

^Interesting stuff about Kosh, Reverend!

This is my favorite stretch of episodes (end of Season 3 - start of Season 4). They're so intense.

Kirk, what did you think of the Shadow's ideology as explained in Za'ha'Dum? That was the first episode of B5 I saw, and what attracted me to the show, in addition to that awesome cliffhanger, was that the central conflict seemed to be about something more than just conquest.

JoeD80 wrote:

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Time travel isn't Sheridan's strong suit.

Indeed. I agree that his logic here didn't make a lot of sense, and there's something in Season 5 that always bugs me too. But more on that later.

[DalekJim]

I envy anybody watching B5 for the first time. The greatest live-action sci-fi show ever made (Although Doctor Who is my favourite!).

I decided to marathon the movies and Crusade recently. The Gathering is good but flawed, The Beginning is great, Thirdspace is hugely underrated by the fandom, River of Souls is meh and Call to Arms is fucking terrible.

It put me off watching Crusade for ages which is a shame as watching it now, it is a pretty damn good show. Gonna review it for the blog.

Reverend wrote:

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Yeah, I know I've said it elsewhere, but you can really see how much Kosh changed over the years by listening to what he says to G'Kar in 'Dust to Dust': -

Kosh's characterisation is beautifully subtle in the show. Such few shows take risks like that.

[kirk55555]

Snatcher42 wrote:

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^Interesting stuff about Kosh, Reverend!

This is my favorite stretch of episodes (end of Season 3 - start of Season 4). They're so intense.

Kirk, what did you think of the Shadow's ideology as explained in Za'ha'Dum? That was the first episode of B5 I saw, and what attracted me to the show, in addition to that awesome cliffhanger, was that the central conflict seemed to be about something more than just conquest.

I liked that the Shadows got a motivation besides just destroying everything. Its a motivation that can atleast be understood, even if you don't agree with it. Survival of the fittest, growing through conflict, you can see why someone might come to the conclusion that its a good idea (although personally I don't think it is). Its a philosophy I've seen/read a lot of bad guys have, but its still interesting in b5. The vorlon's side of it is also interesting, although the fact that they are causing more destruction than the shadows doesn't give them any moral high ground anymore.

Now, for the episode I just watched.

Falling Toward Apotheosis - Londo's reaction to the emperor's head collection was great. I still enjoy the emperor being completely insane, his insanity is very entertaining, and seeing Londo interact with him is awesome. Londo is good at manipulating maniacs. I'm glad the b5 staff decided to get rid of vorlon Darth Vader. Garibaldi's fight went about as well as I expected, but I'm pretty sure it did what it was supposed to. Sheridan's plan was better, and seeing the vorlon fight the part of Kosh was cool. Delenn/Sheridan getting engaged wasn't surprising, although giving him only 20 years left to live was. Its interesting to learn how G'kar loses an eye. G'Kar is lucky the emperor didn't have both his eyes removed. This was a very good episode.

[DalekJim]

The Centauri Prime stuff in Season 4 was the first Babylon 5 I ever watched, back when I was a little kid. Loved it then and appreciate it even more now I understand the context behind everything.