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Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

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Old January 19 2013, 10:48 PM   #571
Kegg
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
Also, I really hope that when you say I skipped the

Kegg wrote:
funniest and best written and important and most memorable episodes of the show's run
that atleast you weren't including Won't Get Fooled Again in that
Actually I was thinking specifically of that episode.

(I'd also argue that The Princess Trilogy/WGFA were in no way important overall, since I got 15 episodes farther than the Trilogy, and it was never brought up, not even once, in any of the episodes).
That Crichton has a Scorpius voice in his head that talks to him is established in the Princess Trilogy, after having been established in Crackers Don't Matter. That this voice is real and a neurochip is established in Won't Get Fooled Again. The Princess Trilogy also introduces the Scarrans (who appear again in Won't Get Fooled Again) and have Crichton make an important choice - choosing to spare Scorpius' life - which has major ramifications.

It's true the main plot of Kiss the Princess is a standalone story, but it includes a lot of arc seeds that are important for the show down the line. Like or hate the trilogy it's in no way tenable to suggest it didn't have a long term impact on the series.
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Old January 19 2013, 11:43 PM   #572
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
With "There All the Honor Lies" its actually the main story that I'm not sure about, same with ITSOZ.
?! "In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum" is one of the main keys to the entire story!
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Old January 20 2013, 12:31 AM   #573
kirk55555
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

Kegg wrote: View Post
kirk55555 wrote: View Post
Also, I really hope that when you say I skipped the

Kegg wrote:
funniest and best written and important and most memorable episodes of the show's run
that atleast you weren't including Won't Get Fooled Again in that
Actually I was thinking specifically of that episode.

(I'd also argue that The Princess Trilogy/WGFA were in no way important overall, since I got 15 episodes farther than the Trilogy, and it was never brought up, not even once, in any of the episodes).
That Crichton has a Scorpius voice in his head that talks to him is established in the Princess Trilogy, after having been established in Crackers Don't Matter. That this voice is real and a neurochip is established in Won't Get Fooled Again. The Princess Trilogy also introduces the Scarrans (who appear again in Won't Get Fooled Again) and have Crichton make an important choice - choosing to spare Scorpius' life - which has major ramifications.

It's true the main plot of Kiss the Princess is a standalone story, but it includes a lot of arc seeds that are important for the show down the line. Like or hate the trilogy it's in no way tenable to suggest it didn't have a long term impact on the series.
I guess it would have been better to say that it was not a neccessary Trilogy to watch, in that you won't get lost or anything by skipping it. All of the things that continued from that episode I figured out/was told in the episodes after, for the most part (I will admit that the scarrans were a little confusing, first seeing tone when John was getting the chip removed after having never seeing them before). So, some things were important, but like you said, they had nothing to do with the overall plot of those episodes. So, the trilogy's story had no impact on the series, just some things that could have been stuck into any episode.

Won't Get Fooled Again, however, is a complete waste of time, and is just a horrible episode. If I was forced to watch a bad Farscape episode, I'd take Jeremiah Chricton over WGFA. Heck, I might even take A Human Reaction over WGFA, although AHR only wins because I think a horrible cliched story would be more tolerable then a horrible story with terrible humor.

Ok, before I have every Farscape super fan ready to burn me at the stake, I think I should just stop talking about Farscape
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Old January 20 2013, 12:45 AM   #574
Sindatur
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
Ok, before I have every Farscape super fan ready to burn me at the stake, I think I should just stop talking about Farscape
I did try to steer it that direction

Besides, now, we're all busy sharpening our knives up in preparation for your review of In The Shadow of Z'Ha'Dum
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Old January 20 2013, 01:25 AM   #575
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

I didn't realise until I was looking on wikipedia, but that guy thats mentioned in the summary for In The Shadow of Z'Ha'Dum, Morden, is the mysterious guy doing all the "favors" for Londo. It should be an interesting episode (and hopefully There All the Honor Lies and Now for A Word are too). I guess a few things about the summaries (TATHL being about a frame up, NFAW being focused on the News and ITSOZ being focused on wether a supposedly dead person is alive or not) just kind of made me want to delay watching them. But, B5 hasn't really been big about doing really standard cliche stuff, so I'm sure they'll all be good.
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Old January 20 2013, 04:04 AM   #576
Nagisa Furukawa
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

And There All Honor Lies is a bit meh episode (I like the subplot though), but And Now for a Word is a great experiment and In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum is possibly the most crucial episode of S2 for the overall arc. After that, with the exception of the average Knives (which still has great Londo material) and the messy Divided Loyalties (which is still very important in the overall scheme), the rest of S2 after that is all excellent stuff.

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
ITSOZ being focused on wether a supposedly dead person is alive or not
Ah, but see, that isn't what it's about. There's no doubt about it; Morden is alive, 100% living, not dead, mortal. The episode is about what it MEANS that this man, who was thought to have died years ago, is alive, both on a very personal level for one of the main character's and on a much grander level that affects the entire fabric of the show's mythology.
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Old January 20 2013, 10:21 AM   #577
Rowan Sjet
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

In other words, stop reading the damn summaries!
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Old January 20 2013, 10:53 AM   #578
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

Looking at the Wiki summaries, there are only a few spoilers in them, but they're still spoilers I'd try to avoid as a first-time viewer.

From where you are in the series now, I'd take it on faith. If you're still watching the show now then it's not going to let you down in the remainder of the series. There are a few duffers, but generally, the rest of seasons 2, 3 and 4 at least are incredibly strong. Season 5, starts slow but starts gathering pace towards mid-season, and the final 5 or 6 episodes are as good as anything that's gone before.
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Old January 20 2013, 03:37 PM   #579
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

Kirk: You really need to stop reading the summaries immediately. Since you seem to be reading the summaries a few eps ahead of time you are going to have major plot points completely ruined, especially starting in season 3.
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Old January 20 2013, 04:46 PM   #580
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

flavaflav wrote: View Post
Kirk: You really need to stop reading the summaries immediately. Since you seem to be reading the summaries a few eps ahead of time you are going to have major plot points completely ruined, especially starting in season 3.
He's bound and determined to read summaries. It's unfortunate. I say let him spoil himself. He's ruining the experience, you can't ever watch B5 for the first time again. But it's his silly choice. And I think the more people say don't, the more stubborn he's going to be about it. It's his loss.
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Old January 21 2013, 09:52 PM   #581
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

I happen to have a somewhat similar opinion to kirk55555's, since I vastly prefer Babylon 5 over Farscape, and never really connected with the latter.

I thought Farscape was a show with great potential, that was somehow wasted on over the top stories. Many times the show was just too wierd and/or crazy for my tastes.

Unlike kirk, I actually enjoyed Chiana and really liked Scorpion. I also didn't skip the Princess Trilogy nor Won't Get Fooled Again. I though the former was an interesting adventure (though it could have been condensed into two episodes, which I think was the initial plan) and the latter one of Season 2's best episodes. The revelations, the way the episode conveys John's brutal mental breakdown and how it shatter's our expectations of "another damned fake Earth episode", are things that cannot be dennied.

However, loads of uninteresting episodes, focused on the before mentioned craziness, leaving less episodes to deal with the fascinanting wormwhole storyline, an awfull "will they or won't they" romance (something which I absolutely detest) full of melodramatic scenes, lack of direction (are they going home or what? they just wander around for the most part) and storyline choices such as disregarding Tallyn and Crais for pratically the entirety of Season 2, simply made me appreciate the show less less.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.


Oh, and kirk? Please don't spoil the amazing ride that Babylon 5 is by reading the damned summaries!
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Old January 22 2013, 12:44 AM   #582
Lindley
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
So, some things were important, but like you said, they had nothing to do with the overall plot of those episodes.
Not really---the Scarrans and the chip were major plot points in both episodes. What was not a major plot point in WGFA was the "fake earth" thing; that was just a setting, it really had nothing at all to do with the story. Likewise, the wedding in the Princess trilogy was just a plot device to pull in the real story, which is about Scarran and Peacekeeper politics.

I don't particularly care at this point whether you ever watch those, but please stop pretending you know what the episodes are like when your descriptions clearly indicate that you don't.

Please keep in mind that summaries don't tell the whole story, and will usually tell you just enough to ruin the surprises but not enough to give you everything you need to know to evaluate an episode.
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Old January 22 2013, 08:09 PM   #583
kirk55555
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

Just to be clear, most of the summaries I read are the ones in the Episode guide that comes with the DVD, and I really haven't been spoilered yet, it just gives the basic summary of the episode.

There All the Honor Lies - I liked this episode. The frame up was done well and wasn't annoying like I thought it would be. I will say that, for a race that started the war with earth, the Minbari have an annoying tendency to act like they're always the victims and humans are scum. I kind of get why the Minbari hate Sheridan, but it doesn't make that much sense. He killed Minbari in wartime, using a tactic they didn't like. He did what any soldier trying to defeat the enemy would do. I bet Sinclair would have used mines like that if he had the chance. But, because he killed Minbari in a way they didn't like, he's a killer He used the tools at his disposal to defeat a military target. Honestly, I think the fact that he scored one of the only big vistories is the reason they hate him, not because of his tactics (which weren't unusual military tactics to begin with, mines have been used for a long time, and space mines make sense). Maybe I misunderstand what happened, but I don't think I do.

I thought that the whole "Minbari do not lie" thing being a lie itself was funny. As soon as they said that, I thought of Vulcans not lying (which means mostly white lies, they obviously lie when they think its logical to) and Spock making a comment about when he lies by calling it an error/omission/etc. Never lying ever about anything doesn't really make sense, and of course its not true that Minbari don't lie, even if its apparently a death sentence for someone who accuses a Minbari of lying Earth siding against Sheridan is just another example of why I want some alien to blow up the Government. They basically treat Sheridan and other military people like dirt, turning on them/messing with them for stupid reasons with no hesitation. Kosh bringing Sheridan to a bunch of mysterious chanting people didn't surprise me at this point. More mytery from the mysterious alien. The gift shop stuff was funny. I especially liked Londo, and his complaints about his action figure. I did wonder if some of those toys were actualy B5 products. The bear at the end was awesome. The moments with Londo and his aide were also done very well. The ending was decent, with a compromise that worked for everyone (although I do wish the lying Minbari had sufferted some punishment besides having to leave B5). Overall, a very good episode.
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Old January 22 2013, 09:04 PM   #584
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

I happen to have that Londo 9" Figure, so, yes, that's a real figure

Glad you enjoyed There All The Honor Lies, more than you thought you would. I'll hope, you'll find the same thing with the next two, especially ItSoZ (continues sharpening knife waiting for that review )
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Old January 23 2013, 08:23 AM   #585
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

Praetorian wrote: View Post
...an awfull "will they or won't they" romance (something which I absolutely detest) full of melodramatic scenes
I just have to say, though I tend to really dislike "will they or won't they" myself, the "will they/won't they" never seemed forced and Farscape's main romance is probably my favorite in all of sci-fi. Or, really, one of my favorite romances in general; for me, it was pretty much the beating heart of the series no matter how goofy or zany or (usually awesomely) ridiculous it got.
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