Hope Solo: Babe of the week #31 (July 2012)

[{ Emilia }]

Brolan wrote:

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If we are all sexist its because we live a society that values female attractiveness above almost anything else.

You're so close to understanding the issue.

[iguana_tonante]

Brolan wrote:

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I don't care about the criticism, but do care a bunch of vigilantes have decided to mess about in threads solely for the purpose of disrupting them. This board made peace with this issue long ago by allowing this one "babe of the week" thread. People aren't allowed to derail or disrupt other threads and I see the statement "but we're not going away" as a promise to do just that.

We come here to comment the work and personality of the women selected, instead of ranking them just on their appearence. It is allowed, right? We come here to argue against the posts we disagree with it. It's what Internet forums are about, no? I don't want to disrupt anything or silence anyone. I just want to voice my opinion. Is it ok, innit?

Brolan wrote:

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If we are all sexist its because we live a society that values female attractiveness above almost anything else.

Bingo! So we are changing that. Starting from here.

[TheGodBen]

Brolan wrote:

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This board made peace with this issue long ago by allowing this one "babe of the week" thread.

That was a separate issue, one relating to this forum being spammed with multiple body part of the week threads, and it was decided that there would be one thread for the whole body. That was a spam issue, this is a sexism issue.

Brolan wrote:

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Sexism? Is that a codeword for "current values of society"? We get accused of rating women like "meat" but thats exactly what society does.

Excellent, you see the problem then. Society is flawed on gender issues, these problems need to be addressed. This site isn't some separate entity that we are applying a double standard upon, this is something we are trying to achieve with every facet of society.

[YellowSubmarine]

Brolan wrote:

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Sexism? Is that a codeword for "current values of society"? We get accused of rating women like "meat" but thats exactly what society does. Why with the thousands of people that go missing in the US each year do only the young, female, and attractive ones get on the news? On Nancy Grace? On any cable news show?

Before I registered on this forum, I didn't really understand why people complained that women aren't getting enough respect in certain places, I thought that such claims were largely exaggerated. “Big deal” I thought. I was oblivious to existence of this pattern of behaviour around me and I feared that going against the “non-existing” pattern would somehow harm my ability to express myself and my feelings.

Then I registered here, and the first thing was to scroll down, notice the “babe” tag in the tag cloud – the biggest one of all. Suddenly I got offended. Perhaps I had seen something so blatantly out of place before, but this one really struck me.

Yeah, I know, this happens in all the other places too, especially on the Internet, but unlike here, at least the people who jump to rating would get ridiculed to the point that they are now an Internet meme. Here you get worked up over well-expressed, well-meant and restrained criticism?

The existence of a meat counter that is so prominent and unabashed is really really hard to ignore.

--

Quite frankly, is it that difficult to think about the fact that there are people who are uncomfortable with it, and then consider that adding something about, say, Hope's football skills is a much better use of your time than posting “thumbs down, her breasts have the wrong drag coefficient”?

[Robert Maxwell]

Brolan, I suggest you read the thread from a couple weeks ago as well as the blog entry linked in my sig in order to get a better understanding of what's being argued here, as it's been covered in great detail already by folks like iguana, Emilia, and others. Enlighten yourself!

[{ Emilia }]

Yes, Brolan. Enlighten yourself!

Don't be that guy.

You can make it!

[TheGodBen]

{ Emilia } wrote:

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Yes, Brolan. Enlighten yourself!

Don't be that guy.

You can make it!

If you are ever, ever in a conversation about anything relating to gender expression, sexism, male/female relations, etc, and you catch yourself thinking, "She doesn't understand, and I need to explain this to her," stop. Walk away from the discussion (if it's online) or shut your mouth (if it's in person), and ask yourself: is it really that "she doesn't understand"? Or is it that she's coming from a place so different than yours that you feel like she doesn't understand your position? Do you think she doesn't understand your position because she doesn't agree with your position?

Very interesting link, and the section on patronisation especially needs to be burned into the mind of every man on this site. Everyone should read it, but I fear that those that need to read it most will elect not to.

[FPAlpha]

{ Emilia } wrote:

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What TheGodBen said.

The thought must be terrifying to some of the guys here. They're gonna start making threads about it soon: "Why can't it be the 1950s again? Back when male whitey ran everything. "

I tried to keep out of this line of discussion but to no success.

Emilia.. i don't know you except for your posts here and TNZ and i like them, you seem like a cool woman, well spoken and able to hold an argument.

I also don't know how you look and what your personal style is but if you've ever put on make up, a tighter than necessary dress or some high heels then you've got absolutely no leg to stand in this line of discussion.

Men judge women by their looks.. it was like this from the beginning and most likely will always be like this. The only thing that changes occasionally is the ideal of what constitutes attractive.. some time ago it was voluptuous women, now it's size zero. I am a man and i too judge a woman by her looks.. it is the first thing we get from another person and in these first few moments we decide if there is interest or not.

I don't see the problem in that at all.. i get judged too by women when i walk the street many times a day and don't notice it at all. The difference however is that women usually are not that idiotic to whistle and holler when they see an attractive man or even try to get a grab.. that's usually the domain of male morons who really think of women as meat and not a person.

This is in no way the habit here or else the Mods would have closed the threads ages ago and imposed a ban. It is people judging others usually by looks alone.. some go a bit too far with their comments but go on Youtube and read some comments when there is an attractive woman in the video.. compared to that the people here are conservative prudes.

So how about everyone chills out a bit and gets real.. we are doing nothing else than what we do dozens and hundreds of times a day when we walk through the city (especially when it's summer).. i'm not ashamed to say that i like to see attractive women but i also realize that there is a person behind the great body i just saw.

[Robert Maxwell]

Let's run this post through the Men's Rationalizing Bullshit Detector (patent pending):

FPAlpha wrote:

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I also don't know how you look and what your personal style is but if you've ever put on make up, a tighter than necessary dress or some high heels then you've got absolutely no leg to stand in this line of discussion.

"If you ever dress in a provocative fashion, you are inviting men to objectify you and therefore you have no right to complain about it."

Men judge women by their looks.. it was like this from the beginning and most likely will always be like this. The only thing that changes occasionally is the ideal of what constitutes attractive.. some time ago it was voluptuous women, now it's size zero. I am a man and i too judge a woman by her looks.. it is the first thing we get from another person and in these first few moments we decide if there is interest or not.

"Men can only think with their penises. A woman's initial value to a man is her suitability for copulation, a judgment made solely on the basis of her appearance and style of dress. There is nothing wrong with this."

I don't see the problem in that at all.. i get judged too by women when i walk the street many times a day and don't notice it at all. The difference however is that women usually are not that idiotic to whistle and holler when they see an attractive man or even try to get a grab.. that's usually the domain of male morons who really think of women as meat and not a person.

"I am judged by women for my looks all the time and I am never bothered by it, therefore no woman has any right to be. My experience must be universal. I need to tell women how they are thinking incorrectly on this subject."

This is in no way the habit here or else the Mods would have closed the threads ages ago and imposed a ban. It is people judging others usually by looks alone.. some go a bit too far with their comments but go on Youtube and read some comments when there is an attractive woman in the video.. compared to that the people here are conservative prudes.

"Tradition is the only justification one needs for continuing an offensive behavior."

So how about everyone chills out a bit and gets real.. we are doing nothing else than what we do dozens and hundreds of times a day when we walk through the city (especially when it's summer).. i'm not ashamed to say that i like to see attractive women but i also realize that there is a person behind the great body i just saw.

"I cannot tell the difference between having a spontaneous thought that objectifies women and feeling the need to share that thought with others in as crass a manner as possible."

[FPAlpha]

If you've ever thought about a woman "Damn she's hot.." then you've got no leg to stand on either.

You can be all protective and gentlemanlike you want but in the end it boils down to this.

Men like attractive women but the good ones know that this is just the outer layer of a person and there's more to every person than their body.

I'll turn my head after an attractive woman till the day i die and it is the same for women.. if you deny this then you are disingenious and at worst someone who idolizes women as some kind of fantasy creature to be worshipped.

Men and women do this and i see no fault in it.. the fault would be to stop at the outer layer and i'll have no further interest in any person who reduces a person to just their body.

[thestrangequark]

^ It's like you read the article Emilia linked and then based a satirical character of "That Guy" upon it.

[Robert Maxwell]

FPAlpha wrote:

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If you've ever thought about a woman "Damn she's hot.." then you've got no leg to stand on either.

Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong.

Again, you draw no distinction between thinking something and uttering it. You also don't think one should agitate against one's own inappropriate thoughts, apparently.

You can be all protective and gentlemanlike you want but in the end it boils down to this.

Men like attractive women but the good ones know that this is just the outer layer of a person and there's more to every person than their body.

Well, everybody likes attractive people. That's so obvious as to not need mentioning.

The problem in these threads is men focusing entirely on the physical, reinforcing the attitude that a woman's physical attributes are all that matters, and by extension, that she consists of nothing else.

I'll turn my head after an attractive woman till the day i die and it is the same for women.. if you deny this then you are disingenious and at worst someone who idolizes women as some kind of fantasy creature to be worshipped.

I get the feeling you haven't paid even the slightest bit of attention to what's being complained about here.

Men and women do this and i see no fault in it.. the fault would be to stop at the outer layer and i'll have no further interest in any person who reduces a person to just their body.

Yes, well, stopping at the outer layer is pretty much the whole raison d'être of these threads.

[iguana_tonante]

FPAlpha wrote:

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Emilia.. i don't know you except for your posts here and TNZ and i like them, you seem like a cool woman, well spoken and able to hold an argument.

I also don't know how you look and what your personal style is but if you've ever put on make up, a tighter than necessary dress or some high heels then you've got absolutely no leg to stand in this line of discussion.

That a load of bullshit. And not just a small dog turd, it's a big fuming pile of manure.

FPAlpha wrote:

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Men judge women by their looks.. it was like this from the beginning and most likely will always be like this.

There is nothing wrong with looking at women. I thought we already did this dance. The problem is when you go from "I think she's hot" to "I think she's fucking ugly and I will tell everyone how her uglyness compare with other women's ugliness".

FPAlpha wrote:

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I am a man and i too judge a woman by her looks.. it is the first thing we get from another person and in these first few moments we decide if there is interest or not.

That was never the issue. You either didn't read the thread, or didn't care about what people said.

FPAlpha wrote:

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I don't see the problem in that at all..

Well, if you don't see the problem, then it doesn't exist, I guess. Compare with "Don't be That Guy". (I am just going to use that reference from now on, because it's brilliant.)

FPAlpha wrote:

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i get judged too by women when i walk the street many times a day and don't notice it at all.

The idea that men are subjected to the same level of scrutiny about their looks as women is ludicrous at best, and idiotic at worst. Also, nice diversion: compare with "Don't be That Guy", about shifting the issue from the problems of women to the problems of men, which, while real and a reason of concern, is just that: a diversion. Also, as I mentioned to Rush, "other people do it too" it's not a good defence.

FPAlpha wrote:

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So how about everyone chills out a bit and gets real.. we are doing nothing else than what we do dozens and hundreds of times a day when we walk through the city (especially when it's summer)..

So how about you stop speaking about things you have no experience of, and listen to the women here (which have come unanimously to tell people they were uncomfortable with these threads?) instead of telling them how they should feel about the issue? (also, compare with "Don't be That Guy.)

FPAlpha wrote:

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i'm not ashamed to say that i like to see attractive women but i also realize that there is a person behind the great body i just saw.

Good for you. Now it's time to educate the rest.

[Robert Maxwell]

"Don't Be That Guy" really is a brilliant piece, and all the men who comment in these threads would be highly encouraged to read it.

[1001001]

FPAlpha wrote:

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If you've ever thought about a woman "Damn she's hot.." then you've got no leg to stand on either.

You can be all protective and gentlemanlike you want but in the end it boils down to this.

Men like attractive women but the good ones know that this is just the outer layer of a person and there's more to every person than their body.

I'll turn my head after an attractive woman till the day i die and it is the same for women.. if you deny this then you are disingenious and at worst someone who idolizes women as some kind of fantasy creature to be worshipped.

Men and women do this and i see no fault in it.. the fault would be to stop at the outer layer and i'll have no further interest in any person who reduces a person to just their body.

But isn't the keyword here "thought"?

I am reminded of the Admiral in the episode The Offspring, who lectured Lal about using "selective judgment in the verbalizations of your thoughts." (A phrase I use with my kids).

I think almost everyone looks (I certainly do). But I generally don't whistle and catcall like a construction worker in a cartoon.

To me, that's more the issue, but I can't speak for anyone else. You can think things you don't have to say, especially in mixed company. JMHO