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Old July 24 2012, 06:19 AM   #1
The Overlord
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Was Gowron just the lesser of two evils compared to Duras?

Was Gowron just the lesser of two evils compared to Duras? While Duras was openly dishonorable and planned on making the Klingon Empire a puppet state of the Romulan Empire, Gowron was not particularly honorable himself and made many questionable decisions himself, such he as playing down the Federation's role in the Klingon Civil War, tried to invade Cardassia for rather selfish reasons and tried to discredit Martok with ill advised military gambits during the Dominion War. Gowron's dishonor may have been more subtle then Duras' but it was still there.

Both seemed like bad leaders, with Duras being more openly villainous, while Gowron was less vile then Duras, he was still opportunistic.

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Old July 24 2012, 06:59 AM   #2
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: Was Gowron just the lesser of two evils compared to Duras?

Simply put: he was.

Picard was obviously bias when fulfilling his role as Arbiter of Succession, knowing the 'evil' things that the Duras family had done whilst Gowron was a clean slate to him.

Ezri says it best though, about how has there ever been a Chancellor that Worf respected or found honourable? The Chancellor is a politician, and we all know what kind of scandel and sleaze they can get up to--in a 'warrior' culture such as the Klingon Empire, think how much worse that could be.

I mean, anyone with such crazy eyes can't be good for public office
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Old July 24 2012, 07:01 AM   #3
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Re: Was Gowron just the lesser of two evils compared to Duras?

That's the gist of it, IMO, although it's worth noting that the latter two examples you provided were written long after TNG had ended, so from a writers-writing-TNG perspective, they can't really be factored in. As an overarching examination of the character, though, yeah. Absolutely.

All hail Martok.
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Old July 24 2012, 08:38 AM   #4
Timo
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Re: Was Gowron just the lesser of two evils compared to Duras?

The Chancellor is a politician, and we all know what kind of scandel and sleaze they can get up to
Or, rather, have to get up to.

A politician is a person who makes compromises. From the Klingon point of view, that's automatically dishonorable. So there can exist no such thing as an honorable Chancellor - and it's all up to the public image the Chancellor can create to hide this fact. Somebody who's good at slaying and wit and looks menacing and engages in brash military campaigns will have an advantage over his or her competitors even when fighting from a disadvantaged position to start with.

...Essentially, Klingons=humans, then.

Whether Martok will prove to be less evil than his predecessor(s) is something we'll never find out, alas. (Except in the novels - but I can't really count those in, as they aren't written under the same intriguing TV reality constraints that made Gorwon who he is.)

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Old July 24 2012, 08:58 AM   #5
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Re: Was Gowron just the lesser of two evils compared to Duras?

Who knows, Worf might be considered a honourable Chancellor, true his reign was for all of a minute.
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Old July 24 2012, 03:00 PM   #6
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Re: Was Gowron just the lesser of two evils compared to Duras?

Remember that Gowron was described as an "outsider" who had often disagreed with the Klingon High Council. by Worf in "Reunion" and later by Kurn as a "politician".

And remember that for all his faults, Gowron never made the Klingons an ally of the Romulans against the Federation. It was only when the Dominion came on the scene and he was influenced by the changeling infiltration (in the form of Martok) that Gowron took a distinctly "anti Federation" stance.
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Old July 24 2012, 03:23 PM   #7
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Re: Was Gowron just the lesser of two evils compared to Duras?

Course, when Martok came on the scene and was a very popular leader during the Dominion War, Gowron wasted little time attempting to make Martok look bad at the least, or outright trying to get him killed at the worst, only because he might later be a threat to Gowron's 'throne'.

Remember Gowron's stance on re-writing Klingon history- omitting Starfleet's assistance in keeping the Romulans out of the Klingon civil war?

Hardly honourable endeavors by most standards.

But, when contrasted against Duras, Gowron comes across as the positively ideal 24th century Klingon Chancellor.

Bear in mind, Gorwon did help maintain the peace within the Beta quadrant for the better part of a decade. He was at least as much an ally of the Federation that K'mpec was.
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Old July 24 2012, 03:46 PM   #8
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Re: Was Gowron just the lesser of two evils compared to Duras?

Gowron could be a dick at times, but in the end, he was basically a decent sort, and even died in honorable combat. Worf wouldn't have done the Klingon death howl if he didn't believe that.

If it had been Duras, forget it. Duras was a traitor through and through.
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Old July 24 2012, 03:57 PM   #9
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Re: Was Gowron just the lesser of two evils compared to Duras?

^I'll agree with that. Just because Gowron was a bit of a douchebag at times, doesn't mean he should be directly compared to a traitor to the Klingon Empire.
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Old July 24 2012, 06:35 PM   #10
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Re: Was Gowron just the lesser of two evils compared to Duras?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Gowron could be a dick at times, but in the end, he was basically a decent sort, and even died in honorable combat. Worf wouldn't have done the Klingon death howl if he didn't believe that.

If it had been Duras, forget it. Duras was a traitor through and through.
As far as we know, not even Duras's own crew did the death howl for him when Worf killed him.
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Old July 25 2012, 09:02 AM   #11
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Re: Was Gowron just the lesser of two evils compared to Duras?

Why should we consider Duras' eagerness to forge ties between Romulans and Klingons to be "treason"? That is just a foreign policy, no different from Gorkon trying to be friends with humans. It doesn't appear that Duras would be obligated to reveal his political maneuverings to the greater public, not in the Klingon system; what he tells the noble representatives in the Council is probably his business as well.

In turn, the handing over of Khitomer to Romulans in turn appears to be just yer standard inter-House backstabbing, a maneuver to get the Moghs out of the equation. Using "foreign mercenaries" for the dirty deed is less than honorable, no doubt - but then it seems that Gowron used poison to get rid of K'Mpec, which is also a no-no technically.

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Old July 25 2012, 09:17 PM   #12
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Re: Was Gowron just the lesser of two evils compared to Duras?

Timo wrote: View Post
Why should we consider Duras' eagerness to forge ties between Romulans and Klingons to be "treason"? That is just a foreign policy, no different from Gorkon trying to be friends with humans. It doesn't appear that Duras would be obligated to reveal his political maneuverings to the greater public, not in the Klingon system; what he tells the noble representatives in the Council is probably his business as well.

In turn, the handing over of Khitomer to Romulans in turn appears to be just yer standard inter-House backstabbing, a maneuver to get the Moghs out of the equation. Using "foreign mercenaries" for the dirty deed is less than honorable, no doubt - but then it seems that Gowron used poison to get rid of K'Mpec, which is also a no-no technically.

Timo Saloniemi
Ron Moore said Duras poisoned K'Mpec, not Gowron.

Plus the Klingon Empire was not hostile to Federation at that time, like they were with the Romulans. Working with an ally will always seem less treasonous then working with an enemy.
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Old July 26 2012, 07:12 PM   #13
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Re: Was Gowron just the lesser of two evils compared to Duras?

Timo wrote: View Post
The Chancellor is a politician, and we all know what kind of scandel and sleaze they can get up to
Or, rather, have to get up to.

A politician is a person who makes compromises. From the Klingon point of view, that's automatically dishonorable. So there can exist no such thing as an honorable Chancellor - and it's all up to the public image the Chancellor can create to hide this fact. Somebody who's good at slaying and wit and looks menacing and engages in brash military campaigns will have an advantage over his or her competitors even when fighting from a disadvantaged position to start with.

...Essentially, Klingons=humans, then.

Whether Martok will prove to be less evil than his predecessor(s) is something we'll never find out, alas. (Except in the novels - but I can't really count those in, as they aren't written under the same intriguing TV reality constraints that made Gorwon who he is.)

Timo Saloniemi

I wonder how Klingon campaing finance wors. Is it the ionvestment banks, oill companies and the weapon makers who are the main financiers?
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Old July 26 2012, 08:08 PM   #14
Timo
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Re: Was Gowron just the lesser of two evils compared to Duras?

...What campaign? We haven't heard of Klingons getting to their representative positions through anything as wussy as voting. The only relevant campaigns would be the military ones by which the contestants either outdo their rivals, or then slaughter them, whichever gets them to the Council positions faster.

Ron Moore said Duras poisoned K'Mpec, not Gowron.
Just goes to show whose payroll Moore is on.

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Old July 26 2012, 10:44 PM   #15
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Re: Was Gowron just the lesser of two evils compared to Duras?

The Overlord wrote: View Post
Ron Moore said Duras poisoned K'Mpec, not Gowron.
Indeed.

Look at how Gowron immediately went all WTF? when the issue of poison was raised. That shows he considered the very idea of poison to be against Klingon honor. Duras, OTOH, didn't even flinch.
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