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View Poll Results: Jessica Nigri
Thumbs Up 49 53.26%
Thumbs Down 23 25.00%
Thumbs Sideways 20 21.74%
Voters: 92. You may not vote on this poll

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Old July 18 2012, 03:26 AM   #91
Rush Limborg
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

^Assuming he wasn't joking around, as he's prone to do. That's how I took it. Note how the story you quoted noted he broke out into a laugh.

Also, from that same story:

Ironically, comic book writer Chuck Dixon, who created the Bane character, worried about this exact scenario on a message board Monday, according to the Washington Times.
But, you know...why split hairs?

As for this--

I also love how women being "empowered" means they have to put up with men saying "I'd like to fuck you." I guess they're just "empowered" to be cum dumpsters.
No one--do you hear me?--no one is suggesting, in this debate, that such dirty comments are justified. But there's an exclamation-point-in-the-triangle icon on said poster's comments for stuff like that.

In the meantime, lumping that scum together with posters like RJ and myself is not justified.
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Old July 18 2012, 03:29 AM   #92
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Oh, those mean liberals. Why don't they have any empathy for sexists? Where's their consideration and respect for people who enjoy objectifying women? Their intolerance for the promotion of misogyny just betrays their own bigotry!
Uh-huh. They have that kind of attitude--all too quick to level those kinds of accusations, lumping people together with little abandon...and they demand empathy from our side.

As a rule, I don't empathize with people who levvy those kinds of personal attacks against me--or against RJ, for that matter.
This is absurd and I see you do this quite often. You insulted right from your first post and then claim that you're under attack. Those of us posting have empathy for women who feel like they're constantly being judged and begin unhealthy habits in order to change their bodies. I have much more empathy for people like that as opposed to people who vote up or down on a woman's appearance, yes.

And, honestly, if you want to be taken seriously in this argument you should change your username since Limbaugh called a woman who wanted birth control a slut. Even if you agree with him I'd think it's not an image you want to give out.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
No one--do you hear me?--no one is suggesting, in this debate, that such dirty comments are justified. But there's an exclamation-point-in-the-triangle icon on said poster's comments for stuff like that.
And yet comments like that happen in here and none of you say anything. I therefore find your sudden outrage about it to be dishonest.
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Old July 18 2012, 03:34 AM   #93
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
^Assuming he wasn't joking around, as he's prone to do. That's how I took it. Note how the story you quoted noted he broke out into a laugh.

Also, from that same story:

Ironically, comic book writer Chuck Dixon, who created the Bane character, worried about this exact scenario on a message board Monday, according to the Washington Times.
But, you know...why split hairs?

As for this--

I also love how women being "empowered" means they have to put up with men saying "I'd like to fuck you." I guess they're just "empowered" to be cum dumpsters.
No one--do you hear me?--no one is suggesting, in this debate, that such dirty comments are justified. But there's an exclamation-point-in-the-triangle icon on said poster's comments for stuff like that.

In the meantime, lumping that scum together with posters like RJ and myself is not justified.
People tend not to say it about female posters, but they'll say it about total strangers, which even adds to the objectification. "I don't know this woman, I'll probably never meet her, but I'd love to stick my dick in her." That's disgusting. It doesn't acknowledge her existence as a human being. It makes her a mere vessel for a man's sexual pleasure. I don't care if you say it's okay because she's a celebrity or something, no one should be talked about that way.

A guy might think it's fun to be treated like a sex toy, but try being treated that way every day of your life and not given a basic level of respect and tell me how fun you think that would be.
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Old July 18 2012, 03:38 AM   #94
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

^Again--I'm not defending that. But you point causes a thought to occur to me...would you call me a sexist, mysoginist bigot to my face?

sidious618 wrote: View Post
Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Oh, those mean liberals. Why don't they have any empathy for sexists? Where's their consideration and respect for people who enjoy objectifying women? Their intolerance for the promotion of misogyny just betrays their own bigotry!
Uh-huh. They have that kind of attitude--all too quick to level those kinds of accusations, lumping people together with little abandon...and they demand empathy from our side.

As a rule, I don't empathize with people who levvy those kinds of personal attacks against me--or against RJ, for that matter.
This is absurd and I see you do this quite often. You insulted right from your first post and then claim that you're under attack. Those of us posting have empathy for women who feel like they're constantly being judged and begin unhealthy habits in order to change their bodies. I have much more empathy for people like that as opposed to people who vote up or down on a woman's appearance, yes.

And, honestly, if you want to be taken seriously in this argument you should change your username since Limbaugh called a woman who wanted birth control a slut. Even if you agree with him I'd think it's not an image you want to give out.
Yeah, yeah, yeah...sidious, I can't give you what you want from me, sorry. I don't base my self-image on what you regard the standards for taking someone seriously should be--for the simple reason that, to be blunt, I don't take your apparent standards (I would call double-standards) too seriously. In the meantime, I explained my attitude from what you claim to be my "first" post. You don't accept it, fine. I don't give a darn.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
No one--do you hear me?--no one is suggesting, in this debate, that such dirty comments are justified. But there's an exclamation-point-in-the-triangle icon on said poster's comments for stuff like that.
And yet comments like that happen in here and none of you say anything. I therefore find your sudden outrage about it to be dishonest.
Say nothing outright. You assume no one's been flagging them. I wouldn't make such assumptions.

Maybe more people should, I don't know. That's their problem, not mine.

BTW...I see you're still breaking your alleged "keep-away" pledge.
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Old July 18 2012, 03:44 AM   #95
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Yeah, yeah, yeah...sidious, I can't give you what you want from me, sorry. I don't base my self-image on what you regard the standards for taking someone seriously should be--for the simple reason that, to be blunt, I don't take your apparent standards (I would call double-standards) too seriously. In the meantime, I explained my attitude from what you claim to be my "first" post. You don't accept it, fine. I don't give a darn.
Of course you do otherwise you wouldn't be responding. People who claim they don't care what others think of them are always very concerned that others know they don't care what they think about them.

Also, please be more specific in your complaints about me. What double standards? You like to throw sayings like this out but you can't get away with that and not back it up.

And, no, you didn't explain anything about your stance. You just tried to egg RJ on. You have literally not posted anything even approaching an argument; you've just accused others of being guilty of vague statements you've made. So why don't you actually take a stance: do you think there's nothing wrong with voting up and down on a woman's looks and judging her on just that and nothing else? Do you think this mindset has no societal side effects?
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Old July 18 2012, 03:50 AM   #96
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

My explanation? I pointed out the lumping with labels like "sexism" or "prudishness" or "'50's morality". Anyone reading the discussion can see that--especially the ones I quoted, which you conveniently seem to have missed.

As for "not backing it up"--do you ask those who label like that to "back it up"? Or do you ask my side to dignify that with responses and defenses?

Finally...I think anyone reading my post you quoted know exacly what I was talking about. I don't care about your standards for "being taken seriously". I give my arguments as I see fit to give them. Take them or leave them.

To be honest...your harping on on that subject makes me wonder--what are you trying to prove, anyway?
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Old July 18 2012, 03:55 AM   #97
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
To be honest...your harping on on that subject makes me wonder--what are you trying to prove, anyway?
That's an easy one, at least: that you are an example of the problem, not the solution.

Those of us who care about progress are used to marching right over people like you, though.
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Old July 18 2012, 04:05 AM   #98
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
My explanation? I pointed out the lumping with labels like "sexism" or "prudishness" or "'50's morality". Anyone reading the discussion can see that--especially the ones I quoted, which you conveniently seem to have missed.
No, I saw them and they jive fairly well with the posts you make.

Finally...I think anyone reading my post you quoted know exacly what I was talking about. I don't care about your standards for "being taken seriously". I give my arguments as I see fit to give them. Take them or leave them.
So yet again you refuse to address the issue at hand. You are once more being vague and making statements with no content while claiming to be under attack by others. It'd be much better if you actually posted YOUR opinion instead of egging others on.

To be honest...your harping on on that subject makes me wonder--what are you trying to prove, anyway?
And here we come back to what I said in my original post, about how lines like this will be thrown out to try and veer off from the main conversation. Thankfully, I can address it and keep on the main subject.

I worry about this subject because:

1) Women are under intense pressure to appear a certain way and go to unhealthy lengths to try and change themselves. I've seen it happen and it's terrible. Men talking about how ugly women are directly leads to this problem.

2) Not only are women facing this issue but there's been a drastic increase in the number of men who are now facing similar issues. We are not addressing this problem very well.

3) There's a distinct entitlement issue where men believe they have the right to judge women which only reenforces the idea that men have superiority over women.

So those are some of the reasons I'm "harping" on the issue. I think they're worthy reasons.
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Old July 18 2012, 05:14 AM   #99
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

I just want to say that I know that men look at attractive women and yes, women look at attractive men. I look at an attractive actor or musician and express my appreciation to friends.

The problem comes from judging someone solely on looks. For instance, my friend is in her mid twenties and she was looking to supplement her income with a second job as a waitress (part time). She has exceptional people skills, works well under pressure, is able to multi task, and has years of experience as a waitress. That should have been easy right?

Now factor in the fact that she is short, wears glasses, and is slightly over weight.

She was unable to find work in any of the restaurant/lounges that are known for customers who tip well. The reason, and she was told this to her face, was that she doesn't fit the image young men buy into.

A little respect goes a long way, and judging anyone based solely on looks is harmful.
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Old July 18 2012, 06:16 AM   #100
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

I'm not judging the women in these threads by their looks. I'm judging their looks.

I'm sorry your friend is having trouble getting a decent second job, but it is what it is. They're trying to draw repeat business, and if the clientele values attractiveness in their servers over quality of service, then that's what they're going to emphasize in the hiring. They're not trying to judge her, they're trying to run a business.
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Old July 18 2012, 07:17 AM   #101
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

Shanndee wrote: View Post
I just want to say that I know that men look at attractive women and yes, women look at attractive men. I look at an attractive actor or musician and express my appreciation to friends.

The problem comes from judging someone solely on looks. For instance, my friend is in her mid twenties and she was looking to supplement her income with a second job as a waitress (part time). She has exceptional people skills, works well under pressure, is able to multi task, and has years of experience as a waitress. That should have been easy right?

Now factor in the fact that she is short, wears glasses, and is slightly over weight.

She was unable to find work in any of the restaurant/lounges that are known for customers who tip well. The reason, and she was told this to her face, was that she doesn't fit the image young men buy into.

A little respect goes a long way, and judging anyone based solely on looks is harmful.
Yeah, it's one thing to say "wow, she's beautiful!", and quite another to say "Wooowee! Look at those! I'd love to play those bagpipes in her philharmonic!"
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Old July 18 2012, 07:46 AM   #102
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

well, this thread's turned into a right cluster fuck.

however, you've all now persuaded me that no matter how i feel, anything i say about women in these threads, or the sleep with/pals/cliff one is going to make me appear to be either a misogynistic neanderthal or a stalker - the latter impression i apparently gave to a fellow board member on her FB page with two comments i made about her photos, so from here on out, i shall refrain from commenting on any thread about women or women's photos again.
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Old July 18 2012, 07:55 AM   #103
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
RJ, here's the thing, you don't need to present the female viewpoint on this issue for us, there are plenty of women on this site that can do that for themselves. These threads get brought up in other areas of the forum a lot, and the vast majority of women say that they find these threads distasteful. You may disagree with their opinion, but that is their opinion. You can attempt to flaunt your feminist credentials all you want, you don't represent the views of women on this issue.
And this is the core of the issue, one that gets overlooked too often and too easily. Most women who spoke about the issue have expressed some level of discomfort at the crass comments in here: the range varied from "I don't really care but it's pretty coarse" to "it's hurtful and damaging". Not one, not one have expressed any positive attitude at what is going on here. Shouldn't this be evidence enough to see that there is something wrong about this kind of threads? Call it over-reaction, but if some behaviour causes discomfort to 100% of the women who see it (not to mention a good number of men as well, but that's not the issue here), well, that should be enough to make people re-think their behaviour and arguments.
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Old July 18 2012, 10:32 AM   #104
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
RJDiogenes, again you talk a lot without saying anything of substance.
You keep repeating yourself, old man.

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
Given your comments, your work with women's issues ended years ago. I guess also your sensibilities about what is acceptable and what is unacceptable in polite society stopped changing about at the same time. You probably were "progressive" and "liberal". In the 50s. Now, not so much.
The 60s. That was the era of Civil Rights, Women's Lib and the Sexual Revolution. As for my career in women's health, I've told this story before, too. I resigned four years ago because our doulas were being abused (sexually and otherwise) by a couple of the managers. The lawyers just wanted to cover it up. I fought with them for about a year and a half and finally quit when things became extraordinarily bitter (lawsuits will do that). I'm sure you'll tell me this is just another "shtick," though.

You know, I don't usually go after people about their age, because I consider it rather impolite and counter-productive. But after your umphteenth snide about age, it's fair game.
Well, I am the one with greater life experience in general and first-hand experience with the Civil Rights Era, so go right ahead.

Talking about appearence is fine, objectifying people is not. I don't know why this is so difficult to you to understand.
I understand perfectly. What do you mean by objectifying? Whenever you talk about someone's appearance, do you preface with caveats about their chess skills? By the same token, when you talk about someone chess skills, do you comment on how great they look?

I find the concept of the thread questionable, because it's not "let's talk about beautiful women", but rather "let's grade women based on how much they make me horny". But I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt even in the most questionable circumstances, depending on their behaviour. Unfortunately, some people's behaviour here has been less than optimal.
This is TrekBBS. The behavior of everyone in every thread is less than optimal.

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
I'll be more specific. I find it puzzling that, while you stated more than once that "rudeness is bad", you never made your voice heard against crass comments about women, or when people were called "Feminazi" and "whiny protesters". Why? Isn't it rude, too? And yet, not one word from you. But you are quite quick to jump on people who objected to it. So I guess that not all rudeness is equal, right?
No, I don't comment on every rude remark at TrekBBS. That would be more than a full-time job. Goofy sexual remarks pretty much go under the radar.

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
Nice strawman you made up there. Much easier than debating with what people actually say, isn't it. The issue is not "talking about looks", as it has been explained multiple times so far, but the crass, objectifying tone of the comments. But tell us again how we object to those comments because we are afraid of sex and dislike women's body, because it will make you look really smart pursuing that argument.
Since I quoted what people have actually said in this thread, I'm obviously not setting up strawmen. You, however, have just accused me of saying two things I never said.

But you know, you don't need to listen to me. I'm just a random guy on the web. But you have female posters coming here and telling flat out that some comments made them uncomfortable. For someone so concerned with women's advocacy, you don't seem particularly interested in what they have to say.
What you have to understand is that "women" are not some monolithic hive mind. In your great respect for them, you should understand that they are all individuals with different opinions and/or different ideologies. They have just as much of a right to be wrong as men do. To pretend otherwise is condescending and patriarchal, which is the point I'm trying to make here.

{ Emilia } wrote: View Post
Objectifying women isn't just rude, it's also sexist. But it seems you agree with my general statement.
I agree that rudeness is bad, but rudeness is not sexism.

We have some small issues with the concept of this thread, yes. But it's not a big deal. This all depends a lot on how people actually act in the threads. I already wrote how it's about tone and civil behaviour.
The BOTW-thread can be just fine and pretty civil. But sadly the tone in it is often degrading, sexist and rude.
We're in agreement about that. But again, this is not the impression I get. The comments I'm hearing from some of the others go back to the same old idea that sexuality is sexism. This discussion has come up before many times, both out here and in the BR.

You said that female beauty is a topic people should be able to freely discuss and I completely agree with that. But the tone should be civil.
But instead of agreeing with that your gut reaction was to call people who took offense at the degrading tone displayed by quite a few posters over months feminazis and prudes.
I don't recall ever calling anyone a a feminazi, but I will certainly point out prudishness if I see it. That has definitely come up before, if not in this thread.

When in fact we're quite the opposite. I bet you don't really think the iguana or me are prude and/or attached to 1950s values like Rush Limborg is.
I would doubt it. In iguana's case it seems more like an issue with trendy politics.

I don't really understand you. Why defend such behaviour? I don't think this thread is bad per se. But apparently it invites uncivil behaviour. And when sexist, objectifying comments are made I'm gonna show up and call people out on it.
I' neverrude behavior. I do, however, defend unbridled sexuality.

Why? Because I can. Because we don't really have to "tolerate this" and shut up. Because Rush's 1950's values don't apply here. Women are allowed to speak up now and I'm sure you appreciate that, RJ.
I appreciate it quite a bit, since this is what I've been fighting for all my life. Not to pull the age card again, but you folks have no idea how wonderful it is, for example, just to turn on an astronomy show or paleontology show and see that half of the talking heads are women. This is major for someone of my generation, and completely eclipses any issues of goofy comments on an Internet forum.

I never said the thread itself is bad. I think some of the comments made are awful. What are you arguing?
Are you just arguing for the sake of furthering your "feminism is so outdated"-agenda?
I never said feminism is outdated. I did probably say that the current iteration of feminism, like every other contemporary ideology, has succumbed to extremism and is, in many ways, out of touch with its own history.

You need new glasses then. That's absolutely not what I was trying to say at least. It's not about trying to make "talking about looks" a taboo. It's about a certain type of sexist, offensive, degrading attitude that shows up in this thread again and again.
Like I said I don't remember you making any of these posts.
Then, aside from a different idea of what sexism means, we are in agreement.

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
RJ, here's the thing, you don't need to present the female viewpoint on this issue for us, there are plenty of women on this site that can do that for themselves. These threads get brought up in other areas of the forum a lot, and the vast majority of women say that they find these threads distasteful. You may disagree with their opinion, but that is their opinion. You can attempt to flaunt your feminist credentials all you want, you don't represent the views of women on this issue.
I'm representing my views based on my experience. The idea of a "female viewpoint" versus a "male viewpoint" is sexist. Neither women nor men have a hive mind, nor are they different creatures with different mentalities based on their gender. That is the 1950s mentality that I am opposing here. Arguments should be based on logic and reason, not ancient gender roles.

Have you stopped to ask yourself why women feel that way? And why you feel differently?
Each women feels how they feel for different reasons.

RJ, look at who you're arguing against. Now look at who has your back. You're not on the progressive or liberal side of this argument, no matter how much you claim to be. And the sad thing is that you're the only person here who appears to be unable to see that.
I am definitely on the liberal side, I'm just not on the Left Wing side. There's a big difference. This is the life-long problem of being a liberal. The Left Wing accuses you of being Right Wing and the Right Wing accuses you of being Left Wing.

And I'm running very late. If I've missed anyone, I will try to catch up this evening. Hopefully we can put this one to bed for another six months.
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Old July 18 2012, 03:20 PM   #105
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

It has taken me awhile to sort my thoughts and feelings about this thread. Hereís my perspective: The reason this thread is wrong is the context. Despite all the progress thatís been made in Womanís Lib, we still have a very long way to go. Most womenís worth is still judged on their appearance, and women still face regular and active discrimination based not only on their sex, but on how they look. Even in the most progressive and developed countries women still face regular sexual harassment, they are bombarded with images of what they should look like, and taught to obsess over their appearance. The very real toll this takes is easily seen in the prevalence of eating disorders, or in behaviors like the recent trend of tween and teen girls posting ďAm I Pretty or UglyĒ videos on Youtube. This thread might be fine if these comments didnít translate to real life, but the truth is that what is happening in here is not isolated: I recall a Savage Love column in which a woman wrote about the fact that she was ugly, and had accepted that, but was sick and tired of men coming up to her in bars and telling her just how ugly she was; every day on my walk to the train I pass a meat processing factory, a coffin building company, and a firehouse, each boasting men with a seemingly unending cache of lewd comments; a couple of years ago three 7 and 8 year old boys in one of my classes were suspended because they told a little girl they were going to ďhump her till [she] bled.Ē

On the internet sexism is rampant. From threads like this, which on the surface may seem benign, to instances like the recent kerfuffle in gaming when a male gamer talked about raping a female gamer. Itís all well and fine to say that itís just talk, but put a little thought into it; what are the odds that the woman some dude on the internet jokingly says should be raped has actually been sexually assaulted? One in four (and thatís just reported sexual assaults, given the number of assaults that go unreported, Iíd suspect the actual odds are much higher). What are the odds that a woman reading this thread has been sexually harassed? Probably pretty damned high. In an ideal world where the work of Womenís Lib was complete, perhaps things would be different, but thatís not the world we live in. Misogyny and sexism are still rampant, and there are also too many men who, while they are not intentionally misogynistic or sexist, are just utterly clueless, and donít understand when commenting on a womanís appearance is appropriate or how to do it without coming off as a complete creep.

RJ is correct in saying that sexuality and sexual harassment are not the same thing: there is a difference between a compliment or an appreciative look and an inappropriate comment or intimidating leer. Unfortunately, this thread treads far too often into the realm of the latter category.
sidious is right on track, and want to add a few observations:
sidious618 wrote: View Post
I worry about this subject because:

1) Women are under intense pressure to appear a certain way and go to unhealthy lengths to try and change themselves. I've seen it happen and it's terrible. Men talking about how ugly women are directly leads to this problem.
To complicate it more, it's not just talking about ugliness that contributes, but talking about attractiveness in an objectifying manner can be just as damaging. I've experienced street harassment that has made me feel physically nauseated and emotionally like shit, but no man on the street has ever said anything negative about my appearance. When a strange man licks his lips and says at you (and they are saying it at you, not to you, "Mmmmmmmm....what a nice, big, round ass," it doesn't feel good.

3) There's a distinct entitlement issue where men believe they have the right to judge women which only reenforces the idea that men have superiority over women.
Yes, yes, YES! This is spot on. Every single time I step out onto the street I feel like a show poney on an auction block. It's not imagined, it's not in my head, there are very real, tangible behaviors on the part of the men in this city that make me feel this way. They feel entitled to comment upon and sometimes even touch my body. Leaving the issue of physical contact aside, do you have the right to objectify a woman and make such remarks about her appearance? Sure! Free speech. But I have the right to call you out as the sexist creep you are! That's all I really have to say.
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