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View Poll Results: Jessica Nigri
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Old July 20 2012, 03:00 AM   #181
gh4chiefs
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

Captain Craig wrote: View Post
gh4chiefs wrote: View Post
Secondly a more broader question, since thiss type of thread lends itself to the comments that are offensive to an apparently rather large chunk of the board, why is it even allowed to exist?
Not a large chunk of the board. Half dozen + or so have gotten really vocally for this thread. Perception is a bit skewed therefore.
Well you may be right, it seemed bigger, but maybe it is a perception. But then I guess my question to those "have dozen + or so" kind of remains. Why look when you know it's going to offend you?

I frequent another bulletin board that has what they call a "Girlie thread" and it's titled as such, followed by the words "Don't Look and Complain." I don't know, seems like reasonable advice to me. Just sayin'.
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Old July 20 2012, 03:07 AM   #182
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

gh4chiefs wrote: View Post
Captain Craig wrote: View Post
gh4chiefs wrote: View Post
Secondly a more broader question, since thiss type of thread lends itself to the comments that are offensive to an apparently rather large chunk of the board, why is it even allowed to exist?
Not a large chunk of the board. Half dozen + or so have gotten really vocally for this thread. Perception is a bit skewed therefore.
Well you may be right, it seemed bigger, but maybe it is a perception. But then I guess my question to those "have dozen + or so" kind of remains. Why look when you know it's going to offend you?

I frequent another bulletin board that has what they call a "Girlie thread" and it's titled as such, followed by the words "Don't Look and Complain." I don't know, seems like reasonable advice to me. Just sayin'.
Because that is exactly the same kind of horrible logic that leads to disasters like "Don't ask, don't tell." Hiding under our blankies is no way to go through life. It doesn't do anyone any good. By talking about it we have the opportunity to explore each others' opinions and perspectives. This is how we learn. By confronting what we see as wrong, we have the opportunity to change it. This is how we grow.
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Old July 20 2012, 03:08 AM   #183
Robert Maxwell
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

gh4chiefs wrote: View Post
Captain Craig wrote: View Post
gh4chiefs wrote: View Post
Secondly a more broader question, since thiss type of thread lends itself to the comments that are offensive to an apparently rather large chunk of the board, why is it even allowed to exist?
Not a large chunk of the board. Half dozen + or so have gotten really vocally for this thread. Perception is a bit skewed therefore.
Well you may be right, it seemed bigger, but maybe it is a perception. But then I guess my question to those "have dozen + or so" kind of remains. Why look when you know it's going to offend you?

I frequent another bulletin board that has what they call a "Girlie thread" and it's titled as such, followed by the words "Don't Look and Complain." I don't know, seems like reasonable advice to me. Just sayin'.
It's not a simple matter of the thread having content people don't like. I don't care about sports; I stay out of sports-related threads. But this isn't about just being a topic certain people "don't like," it's about sexist attitudes that are found elsewhere on the board and are even more concentrated in threads like this.

Frankly, I have no issue with shaming people into treating women with a minimal level of respect. We don't need forum rules for that, just an attitude that makes it clear sexist comments are just as unwelcome as racist and homophobic ones.

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Old July 20 2012, 03:19 AM   #184
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

Well okay, but I think maybe, just maybe, you're taking this thread way too seriously.

But that's your right and that's cool with me. Please carry on with the discussion.
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Old July 20 2012, 03:29 AM   #185
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

gh4chiefs wrote: View Post
Well okay, but I think maybe, just maybe, you're taking this thread way too seriously.

But that's your right and that's cool with me. Please carry on with the discussion.
And it's cool that that's your opinion. But to clarify at least where I, personally, am coming from (and I can speak only for myself though I'd suspect that most of the other people who've spoken out in this thread are coming from a similar place): Certainly the boorish comments of a few men in this single thread don't play much of a role in the scheme of my own life. I do, however, think this behavior is symptomatic of a much larger issue that is pervasive on this board, in geek culture, and in real life. And that is an issue that does affect me daily across many aspects of my life. That's why I take it seriously.

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Old July 20 2012, 03:47 AM   #186
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

thestrangequark wrote: View Post
: Certainly the boorish comments of a few men in this single thread don't play much of a role in the scheme of my own life.
Well this is where we can agree to disagree. I would argue they don't play much of a role in the scheme of anyone's life. I think you're assigning them more power than they truly have. Or said another way, if this thread and the attached comments all suddenly went poof, there would be no affect on the lives of women anywhere.

But I know you don't agree, and I don't want to fight. I just accept we see it different. In the interest of disclosure, I'm not offended by the threads or comments, but that's partly because the women shown in these threads are often women who trade on their sexuality as part of their career (anyone think Katy Perry doesn't play up her sexuality for example?). They've done photoshoots for magazines like Maxim and perhaps even nudes in some case. I'm sure some of them have done nude scenes in movies. So they don't seem to mind putting themselves out there in a sexual manner, so it's hard for to feel any anger on their behalf. If it were just random shots of random women walking down the street, I probably would understand the offense a little better.

In any event, we're not going to solve the problem here. Even if these threads go away on Trek BBS, there are many, many other places on the internet where they exist.

Have a good evening.
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Old July 20 2012, 04:03 AM   #187
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

gh4chiefs wrote: View Post
thestrangequark wrote: View Post
: Certainly the boorish comments of a few men in this single thread don't play much of a role in the scheme of my own life.
Well this is where we can agree to disagree.
You can agree to disagree, but I think this is an important point that needs to be discussed, so I will comment on it. Don't feel obliged to respond, of course, unless you want to.
I would argue they don't play much of a role in the scheme of anyone's life. I think you're assigning them more power than they truly have. Or said another way, if this thread and the attached comments all suddenly went poof, there would be no affect on the lives of women anywhere.
I think you missed my analogy. Yes, this thread is rather meaningless and unimportant, like a little ugly mole. On its own it doesn't really matter to me. But if that mole were a symptomatic of a cancer, then it would need to be taken seriously. This thread is symptomatic of a more serious social problem.

But I know you don't agree, and I don't want to fight.
Neither do I, but I do like to debate.
I just accept we see it different. In the interest of disclosure, I'm not offended by the threads or comments, but that's partly because the women shown in these threads are often women who trade on their sexuality as part of their career (anyone think Katy Perry doesn't play up her sexuality for example?). They've done photoshoots for magazines like Maxim and perhaps even nudes in some case. I'm sure some of them have done nude scenes in movies. So they don't seem to mind putting themselves out there in a sexual manner, so it's hard for to feel any anger on their behalf. If it were just random shots of random women walking down the street, I probably would understand the offense a little better.

In any event, we're not going to solve the problem here. Even if these threads go away on Trek BBS, there are many, many other places on the internet where they exist.

Have a good evening.
Why can't we solve problems here? That's an awfully defeatist attitude. If we can do more to rid the Trek BBS of sexism, yes, sexism will still exist the world over, but this will be a more enjoyable place for women to spend their time. I think that's a worthy accomplishment.
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Old July 20 2012, 05:25 AM   #188
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

gh4chiefs wrote: View Post
Why look when you know it's going to offend you?
I think an argument can be made that allowing a frat house-type atmosphere this thread makes it more likely for posts like that to show up in other threads as well.
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Old July 20 2012, 05:55 AM   #189
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

IndyJones wrote: View Post
gh4chiefs wrote: View Post
Why look when you know it's going to offend you?
I think an argument can be made that allowing a frat house-type atmosphere this thread makes it more likely for posts like that to show up in other threads as well.
This is how this particular thread came to my attention. Believe me, I don't come in here looking to be offended. I am quite happy to ignore this topic on the whole. However, when something is said that crosses the line it shows up in other threads. That is when I decide to come in and read the posts in context.

As tsq said in one of her earlier posts, I too will speak up when I feel that something needs to be said.
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Old July 20 2012, 07:09 AM   #190
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
I'm not assuming anything. Everything I say is true.
I think this says all we need to know about the mind set here. That and calling strawmen "debating tactics".
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Old July 20 2012, 07:09 AM   #191
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

I feel as if need to clarify that my previous post in this thread was in jest. Parts of it true, but still meant as an attempt to be funny. If I succeeded or not is beside the point, but I am far from someone who looks on women as objects.
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Old July 20 2012, 07:35 AM   #192
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

gh4chiefs wrote: View Post
Well okay, but I think maybe, just maybe, you're taking this thread way too seriously.
The blatant objectification of women on a public message board is not a serious subject?
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Old July 20 2012, 07:44 AM   #193
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

I don't think it would be helpful to keep repeating myself against RJDiogenes's (fallacious) arguments, so I'll just give you this little gem.

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
I'm not assuming anything.

Everything I say is true.

I constantly re-think my position.
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Old July 20 2012, 08:53 AM   #194
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

gh4chiefs wrote: View Post
Captain Craig wrote: View Post
gh4chiefs wrote: View Post
Secondly a more broader question, since thiss type of thread lends itself to the comments that are offensive to an apparently rather large chunk of the board, why is it even allowed to exist?
Not a large chunk of the board. Half dozen + or so have gotten really vocally for this thread. Perception is a bit skewed therefore.
Well you may be right, it seemed bigger, but maybe it is a perception. But then I guess my question to those "have dozen + or so" kind of remains. Why look when you know it's going to offend you?
She is right. And it's more than just perception.

And as others have pointed out (and I might add, far more eloquently than the brusque, raunchy nature of this thread would suggest it requires) giving the sexist, objectivist discussions and comments that tend to take place in these threads a free pass here only further emboldens those people espousing such outdated and outmoded lines of thinking to spread and share said outdated and outmoded ideas in to other threads.

I frequent another bulletin board that has what they call a "Girlie thread" and it's titled as such, followed by the words "Don't Look and Complain." I don't know, seems like reasonable advice to me. Just sayin'.
And if the sexist bullshit that gets tossed around by the same old usual suspects in here stayed in here you might have a point. But it shows up all over the board. And even if it didn't, there are numerous people who have already made definitively clear that the comments and behavior in these threads makes them uncomfortable and in some cases offends them.

What I can't wrap my head around is the line of thinking that the freedom to publicly ogle and drool like sex-starved idiots should trump what should be the universal desire to make all feel welcome and comfortable here on this board.

I mean, for Christ's sake, this is General TV & Media -- one of the most vanilla forums on this board, slowly being dragged down the gutter by nerds who think a woman's worth basically boils down to the size of her bra and the color of her thong.

In other words, this thread is pathetic. Trying to cloak social ineptitude behind warped ideas about feminism or freedom of speech is pathetic. (You may have a right to blather on about idiotic ideas about women; I've got just as much right to tell you you're full of shit.)

This thread and the year-end roundup in particular are an embarrassment to this board and to all its members who want to be taken seriously. Not only does it further entrench the old stigma of science fiction fandom, it's fans, and the general status in pop culture and society, but it alienates those women and men who recognize it for the bullshit that it is.
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Old July 20 2012, 10:16 AM   #195
RJDiogenes
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

^^ Oh, man.

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
RJ, I did not agree with Trekker. That is a distortion of what I said, at the very least. Why do you continually criticize people for things they didn't say?
I was referring to post #122. Perhaps I misunderstood.

{ Emilia } wrote: View Post
For those who just tuned in: Welcome to today's issue of "Know your logical fallacies".
Here's a little summary for you.

----
Things RJ argues against:

- Women are a hive mind.
- Ban porn.
- Ban this thread.
- Sexuality is bad.
- Sex is icky.
- Discussing female beauty is bad.
-----

What we actually said:

None of the above.




RJ, you're turning this discussion into a damn farce and it's appalling.
And, again, I never said anybody here said any of those things.

sidious618 wrote: View Post
He's also continuing to ignore the fact that women are telling him these threads are objectionable. It's really something else.
I'm not ignoring anything of the sort.

Shanndee wrote: View Post
I submit that while the talk itself may not lead directly to harassment and lower wages for women, the mentality behind the talk does. If men feel that it is perfectly acceptable/normal to judge the value of women on their looks or their sexuality, then women only have worth if they elicit a certain response from men. They have no value of their own, their only value is wrapped up in what men perceive.
I don't think there are many people here who judge the value of a woman by their looks. Admiring, or even having opinions on, somebody's looks isn't the same as judging the value of that person.

And how do you think her self esteem was after that interview?
Hopefully unchanged, just as mine was after every unsuccessful interview I ever had. Nobody should allow an experience like that to lower their self esteem.

Kestra wrote: View Post
I don't think he's ignoring us so much as just making it clear that we're wrong.
Yes, exactly. Thank you.

The Dominion wrote: View Post
Exactly, talk is talk, therefore random raunchy comments are the same whether they happen on the street or on a public internet forum.
No, it's the difference between random comments and unwanted comments directed at an individual. One is harmless, the other is harassment.

Also realize that no one is talking about banning sexual content or restricting free speech, just reigning in offensive social behavior in a civil way.
I never said otherwise.

1. You assume too much about women as a hive mind.
Huh?

2. You forget context, these comments are being made in a public forum with disregard to the female posters (several of which who have complained, in case you haven't noticed.)
No, I've addressed that.

3. The point of your midwife story seems to be to validate your opinion of how women react.
Yes, the point of my examples is to support my opinion.

Anonymity doesn't excuse poor social behavior.
Of course not.

It doesn't have to, the issue is the comments themselves, combined with the attitude of valuing women based on sex appeal. This is a straw man.
Exactly. And as I explained above, that is not happening (except maybe in rare, isolated cases, but that's the way it goes).

Shanndee wrote: View Post
Oh. So none of the experiences we've had in our lives actually happened? We aren't capable of forming thoughts and having opinions of our own? Oh. I'm so glad I came in here in time to find out that I don't actually exist! What would I do without this thread to tell me how to think and feel? I have learned something today!
Well, that was pretty random.

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Well, I guess you gotta admire RJ's stubborn dedication on this matter.
Thank you.

He knows more about women than women know about themselves. He is just that damn good.
I know what I know. I'm not going to be patronizing to anyone who disagrees with me just because they're women. That is sexism.

thestrangequark wrote: View Post
Yes, women can be raunchy, but the kind of demeaning and sexist comments on display in these Babe threads have never come up in any conversation about men I've had with my friends.
Okay, that's fine. Again, my opinions are based on my own experience. Or perhaps we're talking about different things. I'll say the same thing that I said to iguana-- in the future you should PM me examples of posts you think are objectionable and we can discuss specifics rather than going around and around in the abstract.

You're assuming a behavior on the part of me and and my friends which isn't true, just as you are assuming motivations on the part of women in general
No, I've said repeatedly that women are not a hive mind. That's my point. Treating women as some monolith voting block is sexist in and of itself.

I know you consider women your equal, but no matter how much life experience a man has, he cannot know what it is like to be a woman, raised in a society that values you primarily on your sexual desirability and defines that desirability within extremely narrow standards, a society where you are still not considered as intelligent as men, where you are still dismissed as being under the thumb of your hormones and incapable of reason, where you have greater than 1 in 4 odds of being sexually assaulted by the time you are 18, etc.
Yes, exactly. That is sexism.

Again, it would be better to discuss specifics. This is just going around in circles and taking up way too much time.
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