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View Poll Results: Jessica Nigri
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Old July 19 2012, 11:53 PM   #166
thestrangequark
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
Today I learned that...

thestrangequark wrote: View Post
they won't do a mammogram on you if you're younger than 35 without doing a sono first
Interesting. I'm used to the opposite direction. As an over-35-year-old, I've had a couple breast sonograms as follow-ups to iffy mammograms.

I hope the evaluation by the surgeon confirms that it is absolutely nothing of concern, TSQ.
Yeah, I didn't know about this either until I called to schedule an appointment for a mammogram. I don't know if the surgeon will want to order a mammogram, and to be honest, I'm a bit scared of the mammogram. It's strange, as I've never been frightened of medical procedures, and have endured hundreds of them...some even painful. I was in the hospital practically as often as out between the ages of 2 and 10, after all. But the thought of a mammogram gives me a lot of anxiety, especially as I wasn't thinking I'd have to dea with one for another ten or twenty years!
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Old July 20 2012, 12:05 AM   #167
RJDiogenes
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
You are the one who brought up the "sad state of the modern world" stuff. And now you are thankful to let it die? So why bringing it up in the first place? It seems like a purposeful tactic to have a snide remark at people who disagree with you. You rely on sarcasm, misconstruction and obfuscation because your arguments don't have a logical or ethical leg to stand on.
No, I just have only so much time to repeat myself.

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
You still misconstructed what people said, because otherwise your argument wouldn't make any sense. But please, keep doing it. It makes you look disingenous, and only hurts your arguments.
No, I didn't misconstrue anything.

Again, this has nothing to do with my threashold for raunchiness, which is so exceptionally high that you might well need the HST to find it. It has everything to do with respect for people feelings and dignity, which seems to be a bad thing for you.
Again, we're just going around in circles without examples. If you're really so worried about this, why don't you PM me examples of what you find offensive in the future and we can talk about them.

You keep saying it, but people have come here and said it was not.
And yet it remains harmless. People also swear up and down that gay marriage hurts straight marriage, but it's still harmless. Just because somebody says something doesn't make it true; that's why you need to think things through.

You assume a lot about what people do or think, and you are often off by a mile. You are not the only one with female friends. It's hilarious how you think you have a special knowledge about women's mind, even more than actual women who came here and expressed their own opinions.
I'm not assuming anything. Everything I say is true. I'm sure you have female friends who disagree with mine. My point is that "the women" are not a hive mind and actually have a whole range of feelings and opinions that often disagree with yours. That doesn't mean I'm off by a mile, it means that there are more things in heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

So all your argument is based on some bullshit "slippery slope" fallacy? It's pretty nice to hear you saying it out loud, because it blows up your argument in the sky without any real hope of recovery.
No, it's an actual debating tactic, as opposed to stuff like lies and character assassination.

Rob Maxwell (and Emilia, and T'Bonz, and tsq, and sidious, and myself, and others) have expressed nothing of the sort. You keep arguing against things that don't exist.
If you're worried about arguing against things that don't exist, why bring up Emilia, Bonz and tsq? I was referring to the post where Rob agreed with Trekker.

This makes no sense at all. Nudes don't hurt anybody. But if a guy staring at Botticelli's Birth of Venus starts to yell "oh yeah, nice titties!", people have every right to think he's an idiot and treat him accordingly.
There you go. So the Museum of Fine Arts is not "questionable." That's good to hear.

I have no problem with nude models and photographers. I have no problem with looking at scantily-clad women. I don't have a problem with pornography. I have a problem with people making crass comments that makes women uncomfortable. Period.
That's excellent. Thank you. So the problem is not a "questionable" thread, or "sexism" or "rape culture" or "harassment" et cetera. The problem is individuals who don't know how to behave.

{ Emilia } wrote: View Post
This discussion would be a whole lot less annoying if you stopped making things up. Strawmen everywhere. It seems there's a certain type of discussion you want to have because you have this agenda of how feminism has developed into something terrible.
I suppose calling it an agenda is supposed to trivialize it, but Feminism is something I've been dedicated to pretty much all my (long) life, and I certainly don't like the current state of the art.

What you just said about Rob is so wrong that I can't help but think you're doing this on purpose. Rob's been posting here for years and what you just wrote about him couldn't be further from the truth.
What did I say? That he agreed with Trekker? That's what he posted.

thestrangequark wrote: View Post
But I never said anything even remotely like that. You know I wouldn't; I'm an artist...I paint nudes...I paint female nudes. I've shared them here! That's a slippery-slope logical fallacy and completely misrepresents what I tried to say.
I know you do. My question about modifying our behavior was directed at iguana. I didn't mean to imply that you had said that.

Anyway, the behaviors are clearly the same: just because the venue is different doesn't mean the attitude and how it affects women changes.
I think it is very different. Random raunchy comments on an Internet forum is worlds apart from you being actually harassed on the street. Talk is talk. I think I can safely assume that when you are with your female friends and talk about guys, the talk can get pretty salty and you say things that you wouldn't say to somebody's face. And that's fine, all in good fun (which is the point of my eternal Midwife story). What's happening here are (at least) two things: 1) Since we still live in a largely sexist society that is segregated by gender, people are uncomfortable with hearing the opposite sex talk the way they themselves talk, and 2) An Internet forum is a public place, but people post from home and have a certain anonymity so they are liable to talk more like they do with their gang. It doesn't mean they're going to run out and harass or rape anyone. It certainly doesn't mean they advocate lower wages for women.

As to the story about the midwives and the calendar, there is a reason it makes an impression -- it's the same reason people usually find Chippendales funny and are so surprised by the success of 50 Shades of Grey, and that is: women do not do this as much as men, and women don't have a several millennia-long history of sexually repressing men. It's turnabout, it's unexpected, and that's what makes it humorous. The baggage matters here, because Women's Lib is not complete.
The story was not meant to be funny and it did not hinge on novelty. It was meant to illustrate that men and women are not so different as our sexist society would have us believe. Women should be doing it as much as men-- and, thanks to the efforts of Women's Lib, they do it a lot more than they did in the past.

Calling people out on their sexism and actively discussing how this thread and the behavior in it make the women here feel is not "Letting the terrorists win." Who is the terrorist in this hyperbolic scenario?
The "terrorists" I was referring to were the guys who were harassing you. Should we let losers like that dictate how we behave? Or, worse yet, how we feel? I would hope not.

Women have left the board because of this attitude. Women have stopped posting pictures here because of this attitude. People have said to me, "If New York's so bad, why don't you move?" and "If you don't want the attention, why do you dress the way you do?" And my answer is: Not talking about this is letting them win. Giving up sharing pictures with my friends because of this is letting them win. Moving away from a city I love, or changing my style would be letting them win.
That's what I'm talkin' 'bout.

RJ, you know I like you and we've always gotten along fine, but when you see every woman who is posting in this thread telling you you're wrong, don't you think it might be time to rethink your position?
I'm a liberal. I constantly re-think my position. It's not surprising that many, or even most, women of a certain generation will go along with the Zeitgeist of that generation. I still disagree. Being insulting or directing unwanted comments toward an individual is one thing, but there's no reason why a woman should be offended by sexual comments any more than I am when women do it. I consider women my equal.

Rhaven wrote: View Post
I've read this entire thread, I even re-read several pages. IDK Maybe RJ just doesn't see it?
Oh, I see it very clearly, believe me. It's very strange from my perspective. Forty years ago, I was having these arguments with the older generation. Now I'm having them with the younger generation. Society moves in cycles.

{ Emilia } wrote: View Post
I get your point. Arguing on forums is often frustrating because people rarely step back, look at the discussion and admit or realize that they were wrong.
Indeed.

By shaping the discourse we're changing things already. In the best case we're changing the way the audience sees things and "constructs" their reality.
Very good point about constructing reality. That's exactly why I oppose the very ideas of politics and ideology. Most people substitute artifice for reality.
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Old July 20 2012, 12:07 AM   #168
Robert Maxwell
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

RJ, I did not agree with Trekker. That is a distortion of what I said, at the very least. Why do you continually criticize people for things they didn't say?
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Old July 20 2012, 12:23 AM   #169
{ Emilia }
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

For those who just tuned in: Welcome to today's issue of "Know your logical fallacies".
Here's a little summary for you.

----
Things RJ argues against:

- Women are a hive mind.
- Ban porn.
- Ban this thread.
- Sexuality is bad.
- Sex is icky.
- Discussing female beauty is bad.
-----

What we actually said:

None of the above.




RJ, you're turning this discussion into a damn farce and it's appalling.
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Old July 20 2012, 12:44 AM   #170
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

He's also continuing to ignore the fact that women are telling him these threads are objectionable. It's really something else.
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Old July 20 2012, 01:02 AM   #171
Shanndee
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

Okay. I had a long and involved post composed, but I got logged out of the board. I don't have the energy to try to rewrite it, so the summary is:

RJDiogenes said:

Anyway, the behaviors are clearly the same: just because the venue is different doesn't mean the attitude and how it affects women changes.

"I think it is very different. Random raunchy comments on an Internet forum is worlds apart from you being actually harassed on the street. Talk is talk. I think I can safely assume that when you are with your female friends and talk about guys, the talk can get pretty salty and you say things that you wouldn't say to somebody's face. And that's fine, all in good fun (which is the point of my eternal Midwife story). What's happening here are (at least) two things: 1) Since we still live in a largely sexist society that is segregated by gender, people are uncomfortable with hearing the opposite sex talk the way they themselves talk, and 2) An Internet forum is a public place, but people post from home and have a certain anonymity so they are liable to talk more like they do with their gang. It doesn't mean they're going to run out and harass or rape anyone. It certainly doesn't mean they advocate lower wages for women."

I submit that while the talk itself may not lead directly to harassment and lower wages for women, the mentality behind the talk does. If men feel that it is perfectly acceptable/normal to judge the value of women on their looks or their sexuality, then women only have worth if they elicit a certain response from men. They have no value of their own, their only value is wrapped up in what men perceive.

This mentality has real world consequences. See my earlier post regarding my young friend trying to get a job as a waitress or hostess. All of the establishments that are known for tipping well rejected her. One even told her she didn't meet the standard his customers expected.

When men feel that they are entitled to only be served by women who meet their standards of physical beauty there is a huge problem. This mentality had a direct effect on my friend's earning potential. And how do you think her self esteem was after that interview?

Don't try to say that talk is just talk. Some words hurt in ways that are difficult to recover from.
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Old July 20 2012, 01:30 AM   #172
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

sidious618 wrote: View Post
He's also continuing to ignore the fact that women are telling him these threads are objectionable. It's really something else.
I don't think he's ignoring us so much as just making it clear that we're wrong.
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Old July 20 2012, 01:34 AM   #173
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
I think it is very different. Random raunchy comments on an Internet forum is worlds apart from you being actually harassed on the street. Talk is talk.
Exactly, talk is talk, therefore random raunchy comments are the same whether they happen on the street or on a public internet forum. The behavior has the same effect no matter where it occurs, and that effect is to objectify random women in an uncomfortable way. It doesn't even matter who is the subject of the comments as much as what they are saying about women in general.

Also realize that no one is talking about banning sexual content or restricting free speech, just reigning in offensive social behavior in a civil way.

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
I think I can safely assume that when you are with your female friends and talk about guys, the talk can get pretty salty and you say things that you wouldn't say to somebody's face. And that's fine, all in good fun (which is the point of my eternal Midwife story).
1. You assume too much about women as a hive mind.

2. You forget context, these comments are being made in a public forum with disregard to the female posters (several of which who have complained, in case you haven't noticed.)

3. The point of your midwife story seems to be to validate your opinion of how women react.

What's happening here are (at least) two things: 1) Since we still live in a largely sexist society that is segregated by gender, people are uncomfortable with hearing the opposite sex talk the way they themselves talk, and 2) An Internet forum is a public place, but people post from home and have a certain anonymity so they are liable to talk more like they do with their gang.
Again, you project what you think others are thinking into the discussion. And isn't the fact that the people making the comments are getting too inconsiderate of what they say part of the problem? Anonymity doesn't excuse poor social behavior.

It doesn't mean they're going to run out and harass or rape anyone. It certainly doesn't mean they advocate lower wages for women.
It doesn't have to, the issue is the comments themselves, combined with the attitude of valuing women based on sex appeal. This is a straw man.
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Old July 20 2012, 01:38 AM   #174
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

Kestra wrote: View Post
sidious618 wrote: View Post
He's also continuing to ignore the fact that women are telling him these threads are objectionable. It's really something else.
I don't think he's ignoring us so much as just making it clear that we're wrong.
Oh. So none of the experiences we've had in our lives actually happened? We aren't capable of forming thoughts and having opinions of our own? Oh. I'm so glad I came in here in time to find out that I don't actually exist! What would I do without this thread to tell me how to think and feel? I have learned something today!
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Old July 20 2012, 01:44 AM   #175
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

Shanndee wrote: View Post
Kestra wrote: View Post
sidious618 wrote: View Post
He's also continuing to ignore the fact that women are telling him these threads are objectionable. It's really something else.
I don't think he's ignoring us so much as just making it clear that we're wrong.
Oh. So none of the experiences we've had in our lives actually happened? We aren't capable of forming thoughts and having opinions of our own? Oh. I'm so glad I came in here in time to find out that I don't actually exist! What would I do without this thread to tell me how to think and feel? I have learned something today!
Well, I guess you gotta admire RJ's stubborn dedication on this matter. He knows more about women than women know about themselves. He is just that damn good.
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Old July 20 2012, 01:47 AM   #176
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Well, I guess you gotta admire RJ's stubborn dedication on this matter. He knows more about women than women know about themselves. He is just that damn good.
I hear he worked with some mid-wives....
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Old July 20 2012, 02:25 AM   #177
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
I know you do. My question about modifying our behavior was directed at iguana. I didn't mean to imply that you had said that.
But iguana never said that either...

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
I think it is very different. Random raunchy comments on an Internet forum is worlds apart from you being actually harassed on the street. Talk is talk. I think I can safely assume that when you are with your female friends and talk about guys, the talk can get pretty salty and you say things that you wouldn't say to somebody's face.
But you just said...
RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
I'm not assuming anything. Everything I say is true.
And it's not true. I'll leave aside the talk is talk argument, which both Shanndee and The Dominion already adressed perfectly, and just focus on this. Yes, women can be raunchy, but the kind of demeaning and sexist comments on display in these Babe threads have never come up in any conversation about men I've had with my friends. You're assuming a behavior on the part of me and and my friends which isn't true, just as you are assuming motivations on the part of women in general; this is not a case of anyone misinterpreting sexuality as sexism. This is not the case of a bunch of hyper-religious prudes who must defend their virgin ears from offense. This is a case of many modern, intelligent, independent, sexually experienced and sexually confident women who have stated outright that the behavior and mentality on display in these threads makes them feel demeaned, objectified, and devalued. That is sexism.

I know you consider women your equal, but no matter how much life experience a man has, he cannot know what it is like to be a woman, raised in a society that values you primarily on your sexual desirability and defines that desirability within extremely narrow standards, a society where you are still not considered as intelligent as men, where you are still dismissed as being under the thumb of your hormones and incapable of reason, where you have greater than 1 in 4 odds of being sexually assaulted by the time you are 18, etc.

This behavior is not isolated, and people can be sexist without knowing it--that's just basic psychology. People who make racist posts on message boards don't stop being racist once they've signed off, and people who make sexist posts on message boards don't stop being sexist when they've signed off either.

And this isn't just a generational thing, as women of all ages have expressed their discomfort about this behavior.
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Old July 20 2012, 02:42 AM   #178
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

Rhaven wrote: View Post
Some women get uncomfortable with some of the posts in this thread.
I know I'm gonna regret asking this question and I'm REALLY NOT trying to start a fight, but a simple question just keeps running through my mind. And it's simply this, why would people who are offended by those comments even come to this thread? It's almost as if someone has to go out of their way to be offended. I guess I feel life has enough problems and aggravations without going out and looking for more.

Secondly a more broader question, since thiss type of thread lends itself to the comments that are offensive to an apparently rather large chunk of the board, why is it even allowed to exist?
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Old July 20 2012, 02:51 AM   #179
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

Disagree with his viewpoint, but lay off the trolling.

Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
I hear he worked with some mid-wives....
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Old July 20 2012, 02:55 AM   #180
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

gh4chiefs wrote: View Post
Secondly a more broader question, since thiss type of thread lends itself to the comments that are offensive to an apparently rather large chunk of the board, why is it even allowed to exist?
Not a large chunk of the board. Half dozen + or so have gotten really vocally for this thread. Perception is a bit skewed therefore.
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