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View Poll Results: Jessica Nigri
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Thumbs Down 23 25.00%
Thumbs Sideways 20 21.74%
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Old July 19 2012, 09:01 AM   #136
Enterprise is Great
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

Aragorn wrote: View Post
Hint for the next BOTW (no direct answers):

"I'll tell you a riddle. You're waiting for a train, a train that will take you far away. You know where you hope this train will take you, but you don't know for sure. But it doesn't matter. How can it not matter to you where that train will take you?"
Kind of easy to figure that out...
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Old July 19 2012, 09:06 AM   #137
iguana_tonante
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Indeed. If iguana--or anyone else--is going to claim that I approve of supression of racial minorities, or dissaprove of professional working women--I don't see how they can say that nonsense with a straight face.
You are on the record saying you wish to return to the "moral values" of the American 1950s. All those things happened in the 1950s. You can't have the "good" without the "bad" (even tho our definition of "good" and "bad" are considerably different, but that's another issue). If I had expressed a wish for "going back to the social values of the USSR", people would laugh to my face, because even if I thought that there were some positive sides of communism, you can't have them without all the crap that was going on beyond the Iron Curtain. (So good thing I never do it, because if there is anything a social democrat hates more than gilded age capitalism, it's soviet communism.) So I'll stand by my assertion that when you express your hope to get back to the "moral values" of the 1950s, you are also unwittingly supporting racism and sexism, because they are indissolubly linked with it.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Somehow--and this is probably just my compassionate side--I don't think the main spokesmen (or spokeswomen) on that side so limited in intellect as to actually believe that.
I have no idea what you are trying to say. Obama? Martin Luther King? Karl Marx? George Carlin? Antonio Gramsci? I have no idea.
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Old July 19 2012, 09:56 AM   #138
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
I'll skip the off-topic stuff about "the state of the world today", and zero on just a few points.
Thank goodness. Let's let this die for another six months.

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
I get that what we consider "benign", "goofy" comments is completely different.
Possibly. Again, this would be easier with specific examples.

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
I.e. misquoting. Thanks.
Not at all. As Dogbert would say, "Sometimes sarcasm helps us think more clearly."

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
People saying crass, demeaning comments to women on the streets. People saying crass, demeaning comments about women on a forum. Yes, completely different. They don't come from the same mindset. Not at all.
Definitely not. In the one case, you have people harassing somebody and possibly making unwanted advances. In the other you have people sitting around making comments that cross your threshold for raunchiness. This is harmless. Both men and women when they sit around talking about the opposite sex (or the same sex as the case may be) will do this. That was the point of the Midwife story that you don't want to hear. Since we do live in what is still to a great degree a sexist society, these conversations are still mostly gender segregated. I was fortunate to be associated with a group of women who accepted me to the degree that they would talk that way in front of me-- I guess I was the Gay friend who was still Straight.

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
See? This is why you make no sense here. Who ever said we should stop seeing nudes, or risque pictures? Who, in this thread, or in the history of every thread dealing with misoginistic comments by a few people on this board, has ever said that there should be any form of censorship about images? You are arguing against things that don't exist, because nobody ever said it. (Same with your comments about Rob Maxwell's hate of sexuality so some other bullshit.)
It's a question of how far you extrapolate this line of reasoning. Rob and Trekker think that these threads have hit the skids because the star of the thread is an unknown who likes to show off her sexuality. Isn't that the same as the anonymous nudes at the Museum of Fine Arts? What is that teaching kids on a field trip? Is it teaching the boys to objectify women and the girls to be anorexic? What about Jessica Nigri herself (or the countless other women who enjoy posing for nude or erotic photos)? Is she promoting "rape culture?" Is she objectifying herself or sexually harassing herself? My opinion is that she is as worthy of respect as anyone else. So why should we let the behavior of a few people drag the rest of us down?
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Old July 19 2012, 09:57 AM   #139
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
You can't have the "good" without the "bad"
I hope that's not true. The cars and the music were fantastic.
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Old July 19 2012, 10:34 AM   #140
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
Thank goodness. Let's let this die for another six months.
You are the one who brought up the "sad state of the modern world" stuff. And now you are thankful to let it die? So why bringing it up in the first place? It seems like a purposeful tactic to have a snide remark at people who disagree with you. You rely on sarcasm, misconstruction and obfuscation because your arguments don't have a logical or ethical leg to stand on.

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
Not at all. As Dogbert would say, "Sometimes sarcasm helps us think more clearly."
You still misconstructed what people said, because otherwise your argument wouldn't make any sense. But please, keep doing it. It makes you look disingenous, and only hurts your arguments.

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
people sitting around making comments that cross your threshold for raunchiness.
Again, this has nothing to do with my threashold for raunchiness, which is so exceptionally high that you might well need the HST to find it. It has everything to do with respect for people feelings and dignity, which seems to be a bad thing for you.

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
This is harmless.
You keep saying it, but people have come here and said it was not.

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
Both men and women when they sit around talking about the opposite sex (or the same sex as the case may be) will do this. That was the point of the Midwife story that you don't want to hear.
You assume a lot about what people do or think, and you are often off by a mile. You are not the only one with female friends. It's hilarious how you think you have a special knowledge about women's mind, even more than actual women who came here and expressed their own opinions.

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
It's a question of how far you extrapolate this line of reasoning.
So all your argument is based on some bullshit "slippery slope" fallacy? It's pretty nice to hear you saying it out loud, because it blows up your argument in the sky without any real hope of recovery.

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
Rob and Trekker think that these threads have hit the skids because the star of the thread is an unknown who likes to show off her sexuality.
Rob Maxwell (and Emilia, and T'Bonz, and tsq, and sidious, and myself, and others) have expressed nothing of the sort. You keep arguing against things that don't exist.

What Trekker thinks or does is nothing of my concern.

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
Isn't that the same as the anonymous nudes at the Museum of Fine Arts? What is that teaching kids on a field trip? Is it teaching the boys to objectify women and the girls to be anorexic?
This makes no sense at all. Nudes don't hurt anybody. But if a guy staring at Botticelli's Birth of Venus starts to yell "oh yeah, nice titties!", people have every right to think he's an idiot and treat him accordingly.

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
What about Jessica Nigri herself (or the countless other women who enjoy posing for nude or erotic photos)? Is she promoting "rape culture?" Is she objectifying herself or sexually harassing herself? My opinion is that she is as worthy of respect as anyone else.
I have no problem with nude models and photographers. I have no problem with looking at scantily-clad women. I don't have a problem with pornography. I have a problem with people making crass comments that makes women uncomfortable. Period.
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Old July 19 2012, 11:12 AM   #141
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
It's a question of how far you extrapolate this line of reasoning. Rob and Trekker think that these threads have hit the skids because the star of the thread is an unknown who likes to show off her sexuality.
This discussion would be a whole lot less annoying if you stopped making things up. Strawmen everywhere. It seems there's a certain type of discussion you want to have because you have this agenda of how feminism has developed into something terrible.

What you just said about Rob is so wrong that I can't help but think you're doing this on purpose. Rob's been posting here for years and what you just wrote about him couldn't be further from the truth.

Apparently any kind of criticism of this thread and of male sexist behaviour makes you flip a switch inside your head and go: "Must argue!!!! They want to ban porn!!!!"

Also: "Braiiiiiins..."
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Old July 19 2012, 12:15 PM   #142
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

{ Emilia } wrote: View Post
This discussion would be a whole lot less annoying if you stopped making things up. Strawmen everywhere. It seems there's a certain type of discussion you want to have because you have this agenda of how feminism has developed into something terrible.
I agree completely. He's having the conversation he wants to have, instead of the conversation we are actually having.
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Old July 19 2012, 02:33 PM   #143
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

As RJDiogenes noted, it's a question of how far you extrapolate this line of reasoning.

We have posters here saying that the Babe of Week thread promotes "rape culture" and constitutes "sexual harassment."

If we accept the premise that looking at a pretty girl and voting "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" promotes "rape culture" and constitutes "sexual harassment," then its hard to see how porn doesn't also promote "rape culture" and constitute "sexual harassment."

And if someone is going to argue that porn promotes rape, then they are either suggesting a need to ban/regulate it (because who wants to promote rape) or they are asking us to ignore their own argument against porn.

Furthermore, unless the poster really thinks these threads are as "bad" as porn, then the argument against them is even weaker.

In any event, can we just move on to the next BotW thread about Anne Hathaway or Marion Cotillard or are we going to keep up this ridiculous bee grinding for another week?
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Old July 19 2012, 02:56 PM   #144
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

Yawn.

All these supposed 'Babes' posted every week to ogle? They all look like they need to eat a sandwich.

Call me when you post 'Margaret Thatcher: Babe o' the Week'. Now that was a handsome woman with a sexy mind!
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Old July 19 2012, 02:59 PM   #145
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

the G-man wrote: View Post
As RJDiogenes noted, it's a question of how far you extrapolate this line of reasoning.
How about we don't extrapolate at all and stick to what people said instead of going for off the far end? There is a reason the "slippery slope" is a fallacy, you know.
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Old July 19 2012, 03:04 PM   #146
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

the G-man wrote: View Post
As RJDiogenes noted, it's a question of how far you extrapolate this line of reasoning.

We have posters here saying that the Babe of Week thread promotes "rape culture" and constitutes "sexual harassment."

If we accept the premise that looking at a pretty girl and voting "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" promotes "rape culture" and constitutes "sexual harassment," then its hard to see how porn doesn't also promote "rape culture" and constitute "sexual harassment."

And if someone is going to argue that porn promotes rape, then they are either suggesting a need to ban/regulate it (because who wants to promote rape) or they are asking us to ignore their own argument against porn.

Furthermore, unless the poster really thinks these threads are as "bad" as porn, then the argument against them is even weaker.

In any event, can we just move on to the next BotW thread about Anne Hathaway or Marion Cotillard or are we going to keep up this ridiculous bee grinding for another week?
Thank you for attempting to address the topic rather than just dismiss people you disagree with.

Porn doesn't necessarily promote rape, however the porn industry in general is notorious for being damaging to the women who participate in it. Disease, drug use, and sexual assault are rampant. This is why I tend to only go for more "amateur" porn, in which the participants aren't doing it for a living (so much of the seedier side isn't present.) As a career, porn is often highly destructive. Things are better than they used to be, but it's not an industry that I would say is particularly healthy for the women involved in it, and there are certain types of porn that are hideously misogynistic.

That said, no, I don't think these threads are "as bad as" porn. It's all a matter of degree.

In the end, while I talked about things that will probably need to be solved via regulation (equal pay, etc.), what is really needed is a change in attitudes. You can't force that through law, you can only address it through awareness and discussion. And I will continue to discuss it, in spite of people like RJ claiming there's nothing to discuss and there's no problem here worth addressing.
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Old July 19 2012, 04:03 PM   #147
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
the G-man wrote: View Post
As RJDiogenes noted, it's a question of how far you extrapolate this line of reasoning.
How about we don't extrapolate at all and stick to what people said instead of going for off the far end? There is a reason the "slippery slope" is a fallacy, you know.
Words have meanings and ideas have consequences. While you may not have intended to promote the ideas your words (and others') conveyed, simply ignoring or denying the implication is not the same as refuting it.
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Old July 19 2012, 04:15 PM   #148
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

So saying "people shouldn't make crass comments about women" is now of "ban pornography!!! (and free speech while you are at it!!!)"?

What else? People say "you should eat better" and you hear "ban butter and endorse forced veganism on everyone!!!!"? Or when your neighbour say "you shouldn't sing death metal songs at the top of your lungs at 2 in the morning" you hear "ban music from the country!!!"?

I never saw anyone here arguing for the banning of anything. We just voiced our displeasure with the way some people express themselves. Do you have troubles understanding the difference between "I don't like this" and "I want to make this illegal for anyone"? (Well, maybe you do). Are you so unsure of yourself that any criticism is treated as a threat?

And you guys had the gall of talking about "hysterical reaction".
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Old July 19 2012, 04:17 PM   #149
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
So saying "people shouldn't make crass comments about women" is now of "ban pornography!!! (and free speech while you are at it!!!)"?

What else? People say "you should eat better" and you hear "ban butter and endorse forced veganism on everyone!!!!"? Or when your neighbour say "you shouldn't sing death metal songs at the top of your lungs at 2 in the morning" you hear "ban music from the country!!!"?

And you guys had the gall of talking about "hysterical reaction".
It's weird how all we did was discuss how the tone of these threads is inappropriate and degrading, and in turn we got accused of hating sex and wanting new laws to forbid behavior we dislike. "Hysteria," indeed!
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Old July 19 2012, 06:00 PM   #150
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
I listen to everybody. That doesn't mean I agree. I love tsq and she's absolutely right about the rotten things that go on in this world, but I don't agree that it relates to this thread. Should we really modify our behavior or culture based on the lowest denominator? Should I (or you) stop admiring the artistic nudes at the museum (or on deviantArt) because some slobs in NYC ain't got no couth? If we do that, to coin a phrase, don't the terrorists win?
But I never said anything even remotely like that. You know I wouldn't; I'm an artist...I paint nudes...I paint female nudes. I've shared them here! That's a slippery-slope logical fallacy and completely misrepresents what I tried to say.

Anyway, the behaviors are clearly the same: just because the venue is different doesn't mean the attitude and how it affects women changes. A poster in this very thread admitted to doing this on FB, albeit unwittingly, wich perfectly illustrates the point I'm trying to make: this attitude isn't isolated. If it were isolated to this thread, it might be fine, but it carries over into other threads, onto other websites, and into the real world (where it began). Every time I post a picture in the picture thread I do so knowing that in all likelihood there will soon be one or more crass comments made about it, it is something I have accepted as the trade-off for sharing photos with my friends. That is the reality of the environment on this board. Is that the environment we should be promoting?

As to the story about the midwives and the calendar, there is a reason it makes an impression -- it's the same reason people usually find Chippendales funny and are so surprised by the success of 50 Shades of Grey, and that is: women do not do this as much as men, and women don't have a several millennia-long history of sexually repressing men. It's turnabout, it's unexpected, and that's what makes it humorous. The baggage matters here, because Women's Lib is not complete.

Calling people out on their sexism and actively discussing how this thread and the behavior in it make the women here feel is not "Letting the terrorists win." Who is the terrorist in this hyperbolic scenario? Me? Because I don't want to lie down and accept that people saying crass things about my appearance is just part and parcel of posting on the BBS or taking a walk in the city? Because I recognize the very obvious relationship between men thinking it's okay to behave this way in this thread, and men thinking it's okay to behave this way in the Picture Thread, on Facebook, and on the street?

Women have left the board because of this attitude. Women have stopped posting pictures here because of this attitude. People have said to me, "If New York's so bad, why don't you move?" and "If you don't want the attention, why do you dress the way you do?" And my answer is: Not talking about this is letting them win. Giving up sharing pictures with my friends because of this is letting them win. Moving away from a city I love, or changing my style would be letting them win.

RJ, you know I like you and we've always gotten along fine, but when you see every woman who is posting in this thread telling you you're wrong, don't you think it might be time to rethink your position?
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