"The Dark Knight Rises" Review and Discussion Thread (spoilers)

[Greg Cox]

Mr. Adventure wrote:

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When I was a kid before ROTJ I was sure Vader was lying to mainpulate Luke. It was just inconceivable.

I seem to recall several debates on this topic in my college sci-fi club, in the years between Empire and Jedi. Which is probably why they needed to have Yoda confirm it in Jedi.

"Your father he is."

There were people who didn't believe it until then.

[V]

It wasn't a bad movie, nor would I say we fell into the curse of the bad third act (Spiderman 3, etc.). Sort of like Return of the Jedi compared to Empire Strikes Back (and I LOVE Return of the Jedi).

Bane was great, how I would want comics-Bane done well, its just that he's not as iconic a villain as the Joker or even the Riddler.

There were a few too many characters, not quite a problem; some hated Catwoman; I thought Hathaway was actually really great -- this criticism is to her praise; she was almost under-used (almost). I loved how she used that duality-camouflage, you know when cops show up pretending to be a frightened flighty girly-girl to sneak away.

As an "Elseworlds", it was great; it wasn't trying to tell the iconic "what if Batman were very realistic" story. It was trying to tell the story of Nolan's Batman.

Many have pointed out that Batman would never quit for 8 years like he did. Well, even in The Dark Knight, *Nolan's* Batman stated he hoped there would reach a point where he didn't need to be Batman anymore....not so much for himself, as that he hoped the police wouldn't need him. Arguably, the Dent Act is what gave Gordon this power. So Batman respects the Good Cops enough to leave them alone when they don't really "need" Batman (it would only make them look weak that they can't chase him).

Is this "the" Batman? No, but Nolan did establish the Nolan-Batman as like this.

Heck, even the cartoon show had to come up with a plausible reason Batman would quit before dying (to save a hostage he had to pull a gun on a criminal, not that he fired, but this is how he could "Succeed" in his final mission without dying, yet realize he was too old to go back out again).

So my one general complaint, that pervades the movie, is sort of the whole point: Nolan skipped ahead in time to the point when Batman is kind of too old to keep doing this. They made it a point when he's at the hospital to point out that all of his cartilage is shot, his body has all sorts of trauma -- one of the science of Batman specials pointed out that even Olympic athletes are only active for a decade or so, and realistically, Batman can't keep this up forever.

By all means, this was a *logical* point, and Nolan is skipping ahead to the END of this Batman, sort of like The Dark Knight Returns, in which Batman is kind of old for this.

So it wasn't a rip-roaring feel-good movie like Amazing Spiderman, Batman Begins, or The Dark Knight.....but he was skipping ahead to Batman's Ragnarok. He really can't physically keep doing this for so long.

So my overall feeling is that this was depressing, but I understand *why* they did it.

And it really does feel like Act 3 of a coherent storyarc formed by the entire trilogy; it ties in well with BB and TDK, and gets back to why he made Batman in the first place; people need legends to believe in, anyone can be Batman with the mask, but then Bane reveals the lie about Harvey Dent.

So it was "good" indeed "fitting", though on a lazy afternoon I'll be rewatching The Dark Knight, not TDKR.

As I said before, Bane is *scary* in this, but he's just a hulking bruiser. This is exactly as he was in the comics though; no tricks, no gimmicks, just a hulking brute (who is nonetheless quite articulate). And that kind of makes him more scary, because he's just there to HURT Gotham, to physically destroy swaths of it. Not as psychological as the Joker.

But this is much as it was in the comics: the Joker threatens Batman's very soul, by taunting him that there is no justice and all is chaos, and Batman cannot easily disprove this, even if he can physically overpower him. Bane, on the other hand, is a threat to Batman's body....more than the Joker, you get the real sense that he could *kill* Batman and *destroy* Gotham in this, I mean within the first act this is a real possibility. You never got that from the Joker. But ultimately, the Joker's psychological challenge to everything Batman stands for is more intriguing and has more lasting impact. But that's as it was in the comics.

[sonak]

V wrote:

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It wasn't a bad movie, nor would I say we fell into the curse of the bad third act (Spiderman 3, etc.). Sort of like Return of the Jedi compared to Empire Strikes Back (and I LOVE Return of the Jedi).

Bane was great, how I would want comics-Bane done well, its just that he's not as iconic a villain as the Joker or even the Riddler.

There were a few too many characters, not quite a problem; some hated Catwoman; I thought Hathaway was actually really great -- this criticism is to her praise; she was almost under-used (almost). I loved how she used that duality-camouflage, you know when cops show up pretending to be a frightened flighty girly-girl to sneak away.

As an "Elseworlds", it was great; it wasn't trying to tell the iconic "what if Batman were very realistic" story. It was trying to tell the story of Nolan's Batman.

Many have pointed out that Batman would never quit for 8 years like he did. Well, even in The Dark Knight, *Nolan's* Batman stated he hoped there would reach a point where he didn't need to be Batman anymore....not so much for himself, as that he hoped the police wouldn't need him. Arguably, the Dent Act is what gave Gordon this power. So Batman respects the Good Cops enough to leave them alone when they don't really "need" Batman (it would only make them look weak that they can't chase him).

Is this "the" Batman? No, but Nolan did establish the Nolan-Batman as like this.

Heck, even the cartoon show had to come up with a plausible reason Batman would quit before dying (to save a hostage he had to pull a gun on a criminal, not that he fired, but this is how he could "Succeed" in his final mission without dying, yet realize he was too old to go back out again).

So my one general complaint, that pervades the movie, is sort of the whole point: Nolan skipped ahead in time to the point when Batman is kind of too old to keep doing this. They made it a point when he's at the hospital to point out that all of his cartilage is shot, his body has all sorts of trauma -- one of the science of Batman specials pointed out that even Olympic athletes are only active for a decade or so, and realistically, Batman can't keep this up forever.

By all means, this was a *logical* point, and Nolan is skipping ahead to the END of this Batman, sort of like The Dark Knight Returns, in which Batman is kind of old for this.

So it wasn't a rip-roaring feel-good movie like Amazing Spiderman, Batman Begins, or The Dark Knight.....but he was skipping ahead to Batman's Ragnarok. He really can't physically keep doing this for so long.

So my overall feeling is that this was depressing, but I understand *why* they did it.

And it really does feel like Act 3 of a coherent storyarc formed by the entire trilogy; it ties in well with BB and TDK, and gets back to why he made Batman in the first place; people need legends to believe in, anyone can be Batman with the mask, but then Bane reveals the lie about Harvey Dent.

So it was "good" indeed "fitting", though on a lazy afternoon I'll be rewatching The Dark Knight, not TDKR.

As I said before, Bane is *scary* in this, but he's just a hulking bruiser. This is exactly as he was in the comics though; no tricks, no gimmicks, just a hulking brute (who is nonetheless quite articulate). And that kind of makes him more scary, because he's just there to HURT Gotham, to physically destroy swaths of it. Not as psychological as the Joker.

But this is much as it was in the comics: the Joker threatens Batman's very soul, by taunting him that there is no justice and all is chaos, and Batman cannot easily disprove this, even if he can physically overpower him. Bane, on the other hand, is a thread to Batman's body....more than the Joker, you get the real sense that he could *kill* Batman and *destroy* Gotham in this, I mean within the first act this is a real possibility. You never got that from the Joker. But ultimately, the Joker's psychological challenge to everything Batman stands for is more intriguing and has more lasting impact. But that's as it was in the comics.

I've never heard of TDK being described as a "feel-good movie" before. I thought it was dark and downbeat, and it ends on a much more depressing note than DKR does.

[Agent Richard07]

V wrote:

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As I said before, Bane is *scary* in this, but he's just a hulking bruiser. This is exactly as he was in the comics though; no tricks, no gimmicks, just a hulking brute (who is nonetheless quite articulate).

Bane had his gimmicks in the comic. In addition to being smart, knowing several languages and having hightened mental control through meditation, he was hooked on venom. And this time around, they made him dependent on a mask that numbed his pain.

[Set Harth]

Guartho wrote:

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Did they ever refer to the prison as the Lazarus pit? I've noticed a lot of people calling it that, but I didn't catch it.

No, they never called it that, because that's not what it is, other than perhaps in a metaphorical sense specific to Wayne.

NCC1701 wrote:

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This is pretty much my thoughts as well, but not about TDKR, but The Dark Knight, pretty much how I felt about it back in 2008 and I still thought it was slow, plodding and boring when I rewatched both Begins and Dark Knight before going to see Rises on Sunday. The acting and music are both top notch, everything else is pretty meh in my opinion.

Yeah... I feel like the people treating TDK as some kind of cinematic godhead while simultaneously giving TDKR a grade of "D" or "terrible" need to stare really hard at TDK again. The believability factor aside, pretty much everything you don't like in TDKR was already there in TDK, just maybe at a slightly less obvious level. The "seeds" of these issues were already planted. In this sense the alleged gulf in quality between the two films is largely exaggerated.

[RoJoHen]

Totally random observation:

I'm currently rewatching "Batman Begins," as TDKR made a lot of references to it that I didn't quite remember. Christian Bale's Batman voice is so much less over the top in BB than it is in TDK or TDKR, but it is still quite distinctive from his Bruce Wayne voice. I wish he had stuck with it in the sequels.

[davejames]

Set Harth wrote:

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Yeah... I feel like the people treating TDK as some kind of cinematic godhead while simultaneously giving TDKR a grade of "D" or "terrible" need to stare really hard at TDK again. The believability factor aside, pretty much everything you don't like in TDKR was already there in TDK, just maybe at a slightly less obvious level. The "seeds" of these issues were already planted. In this sense the alleged gulf in quality between the two films is largely exaggerated.

While I don't think TDK is quite the masterpiece others do-- it really only becomes brilliant when Ledger's Joker is on the screen-- I do still think it's a much more solid, focused, and well-constructed movie than DKR. By a long shot.

The story flows a lot better, the various subplots come together better, the movie's themes are a lot clearer, and there's far fewer silly plot contrivances (like the entire police force getting trapped underground, or crime being magically wiped out so as to make Batman no longer necessary, or Bruce having just enough time to heal from his serious back injury and get back to Gotham before the bomb goes off).

It's still more crime drama than Batman movie for my taste, but it's such a damn GOOD crime drama that I don't really mind.

[RoJoHen]

davejames wrote:

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While I don't think TDK is quite the masterpiece others do-- it really only becomes brilliant when Ledger's Joker is on the screen-- I do still think it's a much more solid, focused, and well-constructed movie than DKR. By a long shot.

The story flows a lot better, the various subplots come together better, the movie's themes are a lot clearer, and there's far fewer silly plot contrivances (like the entire police force getting trapped underground, or crime being magically wiped out so as to make Batman no longer necessary, or Bruce having just enough time to heal from his serious back injury and get back to Gotham before the bomb goes off).

While I enjoyed the movie, I agree with these criticisms. Honestly, I think it tried to be too epic. The story in TDKR is so huge, and it takes place over such a long period of time that I honestly feel like it could have been split into its own trilogy (or even better, a season of TV). For a 3-hour movie, many of the plot points seemed rushed.

[Set Harth]

davejames wrote:

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there's far fewer silly plot contrivances (like the entire police force getting trapped underground, or crime being magically wiped out so as to make Batman no longer necessary, or Bruce having just enough time to heal from his serious back injury and get back to Gotham before the bomb goes off).

Silly plot contrivances? You mean like nobody in a hospital noticing a nurse that conspicuously looks like the Joker in drag? Like all the various criminal groups uniting under a "United Colors of Benetton of Organized Crime" banner? Like a school bus driving out of a hole in the side of a bank and conveniently fitting into a handy gap in a procession of other buses, like nothing about that is in the least bit suspicious? Like literally everything going on with Two-Face?

[Samurai8472]

Nolan says goodbye


http://www.comingsoon.net/news/movie...2842&offset=20

Alfred. Gordon. Lucius. Bruce . . . Wayne. Names that have come to mean so much to me. Today, I’m three weeks from saying a final good-bye to these characters and their world. It’s my son’s ninth birthday. He was born as the Tumbler was being glued together in my garage from random parts of model kits. Much time, many changes. A shift from sets where some gunplay or a helicopter were extraordinary events to working days where crowds of extras, building demolitions, or mayhem thousands of feet in the air have become familiar.

People ask if we’d always planned a trilogy. This is like being asked whether you had planned on growing up, getting married, having kids. The answer is complicated. When David and I first started cracking open Bruce’s story, we flirted with what might come after, then backed away, not wanting to look too deep into the future. I didn’t want to know everything that Bruce couldn’t; I wanted to live it with him. I told David and Jonah to put everything they knew into each film as we made it. The entire cast and crew put all they had into the first film. Nothing held back. Nothing saved for next time. They built an entire city. Then Christian and Michael and Gary and Morgan and Liam and Cillian started living in it. Christian bit off a big chunk of Bruce Wayne’s life and made it utterly compelling. He took us into a pop icon’s mind and never let us notice for an instant the fanciful nature of Bruce’s methods.

[davejames]

Set Harth wrote:

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Silly plot contrivances? You mean like nobody in a hospital noticing a nurse that conspicuously looks like the Joker in drag? Like all the various criminal groups uniting under a "United Colors of Benetton of Organized Crime" banner? Like a school bus driving out of a hole in the side of a bank and conveniently fitting into a handy gap in a procession of other buses, like nothing about that is in the least bit suspicious? Like literally everything going on with Two-Face?

I agree Harvey being able to survive, looking the way he did, was a big stretch, but the other things didn't bother me much. Those were just your typical, run of the mill comic book contrivances.

But the ones in TDKR are silly and ridiculous even by comic book standards. At least to me.

[RoJoHen]

davejames wrote:

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I agree Harvey being able to survive, looking the way he did, was a big stretch

I was more bothered by the shot of whiskey that he took that dribbled down his chin. THAT WOULD BURN SO MUCH!

[Guartho]

Set Harth wrote:

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Like a school bus driving out of a hole in the side of a bank and conveniently fitting into a handy gap in a procession of other buses, like nothing about that is in the least bit suspicious?

That one bothered me right off the bat because the bus driver behind would have seen it drive out of the bank and cut in line AND he has a radio connecting him to the bus barn and the other buses.

Actually, it only just now occurred to me that the Joker could have bought-off, intimidated, killed, or otherwise replaced those bus drivers ahead of time. I also suspect that he didn't stay in that bus very long.

[RoJoHen]

He also hops on a school bus after the hospital explodes, which drives away as soon as he gets in the back door. Maybe the school buses are run by the mob!

[Trekker4747]

It's possible the buses were controlled by The Joker and the line of them was a bit of a "Where's the red card?" trick being played to confuse anyone who might follow him to his destination. There's little to indicate these were active school buses doing regular duty.