"The Dark Knight Rises" Review and Discussion Thread (spoilers)

[Donald Draper]

indianatrekker26 wrote:

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Besides, there's nothing to say that Bruce doesn't come back, to help train Blake into the role, kinda like Batman Beyond.

I agree and that was the point I was getting at. He has made his first step but it's a long journey. I doubt the night he found the cave he goes out in the suit right away. He had no knowlege of Bruce's tech or methods. He will have to explore and understand everything in the cave. No way Bruce would not guide him in some way.

[Lapis Exilis]

DarthTom wrote:

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To nitpick the plot one of the less plausible parts of the film is - what deranged police cheif would deploy virtually the entire police force an a 'training exercise', that was really a man hunt? Moreover, the film would have us believe that 3,000 police officers were trapped underground for weeks - come out of being trapped - and have spotless uniforms and are ready to fight.

Very far fetched part of the plot.

Granted - but at least the story actually dealt with why the police were paralyzed. How many action flicks are there which take place in major urban centers where the entire police force seems to consist of 4 guys who just get shot or wreck their cars within 5 seconds of coming on screen? I mean, seriously - how many cops did you ever see in a Spider-Man movie, even with supervillains attacking large public gatherings?

[timothy]

I decided to wait a week out respect of what happened in colorodo. Plan to see it this saturday.

[Agent Richard07]

How was Bruce Wayne's "death" explained?

[Set Harth]

The suggestion I saw somewhere was that he was supposed to have been killed during the occupation, being a "rich guy".

[Agent Richard07]

^ Make sense. I thought of that too just now.

tighr wrote:

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Other villains are equally worthwhile, but Heath Ledger's performance was above and beyond. It's a matter of becoming the role. The best examples I can think of is your standard episode of Saturday Night Live: you can definitely tell which hosts are phoning it in, and which hosts are invested in their roles. It's not "letting loose", its becoming the character.

I do think though, that the Joker is such an outlandish character that he could be played by a lot of people and impress an audience just as well as Ledger did.

tighr wrote:

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For another example, I've never thought Christian Bale ever truly owned the Batman role, rather he just did a decent job of portraying it.

I agree. As much as I love Nolan's trilogy, Bale never struck me as the ideal embodiment of Bruce Wayne/Batman. He did do an excellent job of playing up the lazy playboy image of Bruce though.

tighr wrote:

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Robert Downey Jr, however, IS Tony Stark.

Funny, because he's pretty much "TINO". Tony In Name Only. I don't know everything about Iron Man/Tony Stark, but the guy we saw in the movies isn't the one I've seen in the past. Downey plays his own version of the character, but people like his take because he's a charismatic actor.

[DarthTom]

Lapis Exilis wrote:

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Granted - but at least the story actually dealt with why the police were paralyzed. How many action flicks are there which take place in major urban centers where the entire police force seems to consist of 4 guys who just get shot or wreck their cars within 5 seconds of coming on screen? I mean, seriously - how many cops did you ever see in a Spider-Man movie, even with supervillains attacking large public gatherings?

That's true. There seems in superhero films either a complete absence of the police or they are incompetent.

While the underground holding of virtually the entire police force is an implausible plot device it didn't distract from the film generally. I was just nitpicking.

[tighr]

Agent Richard07 wrote:

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Funny, because he's pretty much "TINO". Tony In Name Only. I don't know everything about Iron Man/Tony Stark, but the guy we saw in the movies isn't the one I've seen in the past. Downey plays his own version of the character, but people like his take because he's a charismatic actor.

FWIW: Robert Downey Jr was also epic as Kirk Lazarus in Tropic Thunder. Another example of him owning a role. He would have won the Oscar, but it went to Heath Ledger that year. He was nominated, though. In any other year, he would have been a shoe-in.

[DWF]

Agent Richard07 wrote:

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Funny, because he's pretty much "TINO". Tony In Name Only. I don't know everything about Iron Man/Tony Stark, but the guy we saw in the movies isn't the one I've seen in the past. Downey plays his own version of the character, but people like his take because he's a charismatic actor.

RDJ has the avantage of being the only the person to play the live action Iron Man/Tony Stark, unlike Christian Bale and Batman/Bruce Wayne.

[Set Harth]

DarthTom wrote:

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That's true. There seems in superhero films either a complete absence of the police or they are incompetent.

I felt that way about the entire last act of the Burton film.

[DarthTom]

Huffington Post had some funny nitpicks:

What exactly happened at the stock exchange?
For the life of me, I can't wrap my head around this one. OK, I get it, Bane and his crew burst into the stock exchange and use Bruce's fingerprints to make risky stock transactions that bankrupt the company. Now, wouldn't this work better as some sort of covert plan, rather than one that draws a lot of attention to itself? I know Lucius explains to Bruce that they can most likely prove it's fraud ... well, yeah. I mean, how hard would that be? "Hey, remember when those armed thugs took over the stock exchange? You probably saw it on television? I rest my case."
What caused Bruce to lose all of the cartilage in his knee?
When we first meet Bruce in The Dark Knight Rises, he's walking with a limp and using a cane. After a trip to the doctor, it's discovered that Bruce doesn't have any cartilage in one of his knees -- not to mention other assorted degenerative injuries. How did this happen? Was this a direct result of the events that happened during The Dark Knight? Would those injuries have led to cartilage loss? He hasn't been Batman in eight years, could this just be a degenerative issue? Or perhaps atrophy?
Why does Selina Kyle trust Bane a second time?
Selina Kyle lures Batman into a trap set by Bane. She explains doing so was the only way to prevent Bane and his henchmen from killing her. Because, earlier in the film, after securing a set of Wayne's fingerprints, Bane's people did try to kill her after her usefulness had expired. So, why is this time any different? As soon as Kyle delivers Batman why (A) didn't Bane try to kill her again or (B) Kyle realize, "You know, I'm not falling for this one again."
Quick travel plans.
I'll accept that Bane, somehow, made a round trip flight to deliver Bruce Wayne to the foreign underground prison. I mean, we did see that he clearly has a private plane during the opening scene of the movie. Now, yes, the editing was a bit odd: One second Bane is in Gotham, the next he's at the prison, then he's right back in Gotham. Fine. But once Bruce escaped from this so-called hell hole (I understand the reasons, but after so much buildup about how hellish this prison is, it was a little disappointing to discover that the prisoners can roam free throughout the prison and that it's wired for cable television), how does he get back to Gotham? He has no money or identification. Not to mention that Gotham is shut off from the rest of the world -- no one is to be let in or let out. Yes, I assume Batman has his ways, but I would have liked to know what the way was.
When did the rivers freeze?
I have lived in New York City for eight years - which include days with some very cold temperatures -- and the East River has never come close to freezing solid. From what I can find, this has happened before, but not since the 1800s and this was under severe blizzard conditions. In The Dark Knight Rises, convicted "criminals" (at least defined that way under Bane's rule) are exiled from Gotham by forcing them to walk across the now frozen river. When did this happen? When the bridges are destroyed, the rivers are clearly not frozen. Again, it is possible that rivers can freeze over in the Northeastern part of the United States, but this would also mean that the characters would probably be wearing slightly heavier jackets.
Why didn't the police use their weapons?
Yes, it made for a visually pleasing scene -- there's no doubt about that. But when the showdown happened between Bane's followers and the recently freed Gotham police force, why did it result in a series of one-on-one fistfights? We saw that at least some of the police officers still had weapons, why not use them on Bane?
What happens to John Blake?
To be fair, this was intentionally left up to the audience to decide on their own. So, Bruce leaves all of his Batman gear to Blake. But Gotham has already honored Batman who, the residents think, sacrificed his life to save the city. The built him a statue! So, now, can Blake just show up on the streets of Gotham as Batman? (Plus Joseph Gordon-Levitt is three inches shorter than Christian Bale, this is probably something people will notice.) Or does he have to use a different name? (Robin or Nightwing?)

[CaptainCanada]

Allyn Gibson wrote:

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I admit, I'm harboring serious doubts as to whether that was real or if it was simply Alfred's fantasy.

I'll explain.

Taking into account things like the air speed of the Bat (to get the nuclear device a safe distance from the city), the blast radius from the nuclear explosion, and the fact that Bruce bailed from the Bat over open water near ground zero (remember that we see him in the cockpit with five seconds left on the detonator), it's highly unlikely that Bruce Wayne did, in fact, survive.

To accept that he did survive, you have to accept that he survived the fall from the Bat, was able to shed himself of his costume (because the body armor would have weighted him down), was not caught in the nuclear fireball, was not burned by superheated water from the nuclear explosion, and, after all of that, was able to swim back to dry land from a distance of several miles.

The objection to all of this, of course, is "Autopilot patch." Yes, Bruce could have bailed from the Bat at any point once he got the nuclear device out over water with the autopilot engaged. But that would mean that Nolan didn't play fair in his narrative because he showed us Bruce accepting his fate and the timer ticking down from five.

In short, I think the final scene is up for interpretation. It it happened, I understand why Alfred saw what he saw. If it didn't happen, I understand why Alfred wanted to see it.

The timing is certainly tight, but it really doesn't make any sense for it to be Alfred's fantasy. We're supplied with two independent verified indications that Bruce survived (the missing necklace and the autopilot patch, which Bruce outright lied about to witnesses to make it look like he was going to die), and, though this is more subjective, Selina's presence with Bruce really makes little sense as an Alfred fantasy. He wasn't around for any of their interactions.

[Leonardo T. Dragon]

davejames wrote:

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And the whole idea of Bruce sulking and going into hiding for 8 years because of Rachel's death, or because crime was magically wiped out because Harvey Dent was such an "inspiring example", is just absurd as hell and makes just as little sense as it did in TDK. And then he retires at the end again, I guess (Sure, that totally sounds like the Batman of the comics).

I think this sums up my most basic problem with TDKR perfectly-- it missed the very essence of the character of Batman. Sure, it had a costume and a "bat vehicle" and a "not-called-Catwoman-version-of-Catwoman" but it really wasn't a good BATMAN movie. Just watch Batman: The Animated Series and you'll see a MUCH better version of the character. A man who dedicates his entire life to protecting the innocent of Gotham because of his parent's murder does not just "give up" over a girl with whom he shared a single kiss and a hand-hold.

Nope. Sorry... don't buy it.

I won't even go into all of the other HUGE logical holes in the film but it is, IMHO, the WEAKEST of Nolan's films. He was closest in Batman Begins-- and even then he was only about 60% of the way there.

[Greg Cox]

CaptainCanada wrote:

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The timing is certainly tight, but it really doesn't make any sense for it to be Alfred's fantasy. We're supplied with two independent verified indications that Bruce survived (the missing necklace and the autopilot patch, which Bruce outright lied about to witnesses to make it look like he was going to die), .

And the fact that somebody replaced the Bat-Signal on Gordon's roof.

There's no ambiguity here. All those epilogues happened, including the bit in Italy. And Bruce deliberately went to Florence so Alfred could see him there, just as he had always wanted to . . . .

[Samurai8472]

Mage wrote:

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You know, we were talking after the movie..... A lot of people must be very deaf. Since no one I spoke to had any issues whatsoever understanding Bane. Is this just a haters gonna hate thing, or do most theaters have crappy sound installations or something?

I've read that people also had trouble with Gary Oldman's dialogue. He was mumbling some things in his hospital room.

Also when he was at Blakes apartment he said something like

"When you're in my shoes let see how well you handle things"


And yes I had trouble understanding Bane sometimes.

-Prologue

-A few words at the stock exchange

-Sewer fight