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Old July 5 2012, 08:46 PM   #1
Kinggodzillak
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Being put off by what you hear... [SPOILERS]

A few years ago I picked up the DS9 Relaunch omnibus Twist of Faith, and really rather enjoyed it. I hadn't been following the relaunch but was eager to find out what happened after the series finale, and was grateful to have this new jump-on point. I was also really pleased that finally we'd get to see Kira in charge of the station being even more awesome than ever. I make no secret of the fact that she's my fave Trek character ever, so this was all good.

Then it was on to the second omnibus, These Haunted Seas. Finished that - and then The Jump happened. Where the DS9 series suddenly jumped over five years in order to catch up with the rest of the TNG verse novels.

Two things happened here to kill my enthusiasm for the range. First, although I'd only read these two omnibuses, I had bought every relaunch book up to and including The Never Ending Sacrifice in anticipation of breezing right through them - but I never did. Suddenly there seemed to be absolutely no point; if this was a story where five years of it could glossed over without explanation, was it really much of a story worth following to begin with? It had started well, and things like Unity and Warpath and suchlike sounded interesting, but I wondered what was the point of reading them when whatever they were leading up to now clearly wasn't going to happen. It wasn't really a case of "GRR, I AM SO ANGRY ABOUT THIS AND MY RAGE IS INSATIABLE, RAAAH!!!", more "Oh, okay. Never mind then." And to this day, they're sat on my bookshelf unread.

Secondly...hearing about what happened to the characters after the five year jump. Now, I'm aware I'm leaving myself wide open here to cries of "So let me get this straight...you're complaining about things that are happening in books you've never actually read?", but just hear me out here. Because although I may not have read the books, I have tried to keep up with what's going on in them on this forum and elsewhere.

The characters were what made the show for me, and I suspect for most people, so I was interested to hear what had happened to them during that gap. We all have our favorites, but I'm sure few could deny that Sisko and Kira were the heart of the show, so when reviews and discussion threads for the first Typhon Pact books came up, and their roles were mentioned...well. Again, I've not read these books, and I'm well aware that I'm on shaky ground and likely to be jumped on for saying this, but what I was hearing did absolutely nothing to lure me back to the series. I know, it's silly to judge something you've not experienced, but the point of reading other people's reviews is to get an idea for yourself whether or not you'd want to read the story, and the mentions of a Sisko who would run away from his family or of Kira being reduced from main to minor character...well, they weren't really making me keen to go out and pick up those books.

Same for the rest of the cast; I never really warmed to Vaughn or Ensign Chiri s'Thingy or any of the other new characters, but having only two or three tv show characters left on the station, with the rest off doing other things? So, what, do I have to buy books from other series to find out what Captain Dax is up to?

So I just now came on here tonight to see if things might be looking up with the latest novels, having not read any Trek all year, and had a look at the thread for Raise the Dawn, to see how the DS9 universe was looking in its latest installment. Maybe, I dared to hope, they'd have come to their senses and maybe brought Kira back to the station, realising that sidelining such a great character wasn't such a good move after all.

The last thing I was expecting to find people talking about was



Nevertheless, here we are.

I can appreciate now what the Janeway fans were going through when Before Dishonor was published. Not gonna shout and scream and demand she be brought back this instant, dammit!. I'm not gonna waggle my finger and say that Pocket won't be getting any more of my money ever again, cos they've not really had much of it since The Jump. I'm only one reader, they're not going to care about my money or my opinion. Just wanted to say that if all this is true, it seems like such a shame. Such a waste of a great character and a great location.

And I was just wondering if anyone else ever felt the same; not necessarily about DS9 but any of the relaunch series, where you're put off a series by reviews and word of mouth, where nothing you hear about it inspires you to go back and give it another chance. I don't want the writers of these books to think that I'm attacking their books for the sake of it - like I said, I haven't read these books - but none of the reviews and threads that mention where the DS9 novel series is at the moment have made me think "Ooh, I must drop everything and go read that right now!" Quite the reverse, unfortunately, culminating in the events of Raise the Dawn.

Again, I want to make it clear that this isn't a ranting screaming OH MY GOD HOW COULD YOU DO THIS, YOU CRAZY PEOPLE I HATE YOUR BOOK THAT I'VE NEVER READ type of thread. I was just wondering if anyone else had been put off by similar kinds of things in other series.

And I also have to ask; with the original cast gone and the setting all over the place (to put it mildly) at what point do the relaunches cease to be the series they're based on, and start being some other series entirely? And when they do become something else entirely...where do we go for stories based on what it was originally? Here's hoping there's something set in the TV series era to tie in with the 20th anniversary next year...
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Old July 5 2012, 09:08 PM   #2
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Re: Being put off by what you hear... [SPOILERS]

All I can say is that if you give these books a fair shot, I think you'll find that they're much more satisfying than you think they sound.
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Old July 5 2012, 09:20 PM   #3
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Re: Being put off by what you hear... [SPOILERS]

To add to what Sci has been saying, it's worth pointing out that while Rough Beasts of Empire was rather controversial, reception of those last two books by DRGII has been much more consistently positive, with many erstwhile critics satisfied by the turn events have taken. As you can see in the table linked from my sig, Raise the Dawn even ranks among the most popular books.

Plus:


So these latest books might actually address your very concerns.
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Old July 5 2012, 09:23 PM   #4
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Re: Being put off by what you hear... [SPOILERS]

Sho wrote: View Post
To add to what Sci has been saying, it's worth pointing out that while Rough Beasts of Empire was rathercontroversial, those last two books by DRGIII have been received much more consistently positively, with many erstwhile critics satisfied by the turn events have taken. As you can see in the table linked from my sig, Raise the Dawn even ranks among the most popular books.
Definitely. The new set of DSN novels -- Zero Sum Game, Rough Beasts of Empire, Paths of Disharmony, Plagues of Night, and Raise the Dawn -- should all be considered in context to one-another. Especially Rough Beasts and Plagues/Raise.
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Old July 5 2012, 09:28 PM   #5
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Re: Being put off by what you hear... [SPOILERS]

BTW, I accidentally submitted my post too early; fleshed out that spoiler box since, worth re-opening.
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Old July 5 2012, 09:32 PM   #6
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Re: Being put off by what you hear... [SPOILERS]

Kinggodzillak wrote: View Post
Suddenly there seemed to be absolutely no point; if this was a story where five years of it could glossed over without explanation, was it really much of a story worth following to begin with?
Given how much continuing clamor there's been among the fans for a book that would fill in that four-year (not five-year) gap, a lot of people would clearly say "yes."

It had started well, and things like Unity and Warpath and suchlike sounded interesting, but I wondered what was the point of reading them when whatever they were leading up to now clearly wasn't going to happen.
But the thing they were leading up to was not the whole story, just one subplot within it. Like the original show it's based on, the DS9 novel line is an ongoing series with a number of different plot threads that overlap to some extent -- while one story is being featured and resolved, a future storyline is being seeded and foreshadowed. Most of the stuff that was skipped over in the four-year jump was material pertaining to a single storyline that was foreshadowed and set up in portions of only four novels, mainly as a background element. There was a lot of other stuff going on that did get paid off in the books we have and that had little or nothing to do with that single thread.

Besides, lots of ongoing stories have big gaps. There were several years between the original and animated series and Star Trek: The Motion Picture, up to a dozen years between ST:TMP and The Wrath of Khan, and 6-8 years between The Final Frontier and The Undiscovered Country. And there are big gaps between the TNG movies as well. Even counting the novels and comics, we know virtually nothing about what the Enterprise-E crew did throughout 2377 and most of 2378.


The characters were what made the show for me, and I suspect for most people, so I was interested to hear what had happened to them during that gap. We all have our favorites, but I'm sure few could deny that Sisko and Kira were the heart of the show, so when reviews and discussion threads for the first Typhon Pact books came up, and their roles were mentioned...well. Again, I've not read these books, and I'm well aware that I'm on shaky ground and likely to be jumped on for saying this, but what I was hearing did absolutely nothing to lure me back to the series. I know, it's silly to judge something you've not experienced, but the point of reading other people's reviews is to get an idea for yourself whether or not you'd want to read the story, and the mentions of a Sisko who would run away from his family or of Kira being reduced from main to minor character...well, they weren't really making me keen to go out and pick up those books.
The thing to keep in mind, though, is that the book everyone was complaining about, Rough Beasts of Empire, was just the first volume in what's now become a trilogy. It set up new problems and crises for the characters, so naturally they weren't in a great place at the start of that storyline. But now that the trilogy is concluded, I've heard a number of people who complained about RBoE saying "Gee, I was wrong, this story works pretty well after all and I'm satisfied with how it handled the characters."


Same for the rest of the cast; I never really warmed to Vaughn or Ensign Chiri s'Thingy or any of the other new characters, but having only two or three tv show characters left on the station, with the rest off doing other things?
Same thing -- that situation is only the setup for the storyline. The conclusion that just came out this month has made a lot of DS9 fans feel a lot more satisfied, judging from the comments I've read (it's certainly made me feel better about the DS9 status quo). You might feel the same if you read the entire trilogy instead of judging it solely based on the first act.


The last thing I was expecting to find people talking about was



Nevertheless, here we are.
Again, you might be surprised if you actually read the book.

As for that "wiping out" you mention -- didn't something very similar happen to Sisko at the end of the TV series? Don't assume it's the end of the story.
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Old July 5 2012, 10:12 PM   #7
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Re: Being put off by what you hear... [SPOILERS]

As a huge Niner (IMO, DS9 is the best Trek), I completely love the direction Plagues of Night and Raise the Dawn have taken DS9. Sure, things have changed. But as a Niner, I feel very strongly about Quark's last words on the show:

"The more things change, the more they stay the same."

Things change in our real lives, so wouldn't they in fiction. Good fiction mirror's real life, and in real life, we loose people love. We lose or leaves places we've grown attached to. So yes, the things that happened hurt me, I cried. But I don't hate my favorite part of the franchise now. It's gone into a new, bold direction, with characters (some still from the show, other from Lit) that I still love and care about. To me, it's still the same, even with all the changes it's gone through. So, bring on more DS9 in it's current setting!!!
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Old July 5 2012, 10:13 PM   #8
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Re: Being put off by what you hear... [SPOILERS]

Oh, and as for the new crew....

People are LOVING the TNG stories at the moment, and we only have four of the original crew members on board. Don't see any issues about that really.
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Old July 5 2012, 10:57 PM   #9
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Re: Being put off by what you hear... [SPOILERS]

For me the answer to the question is the opposite, I'm encouraged by what has happened. When the relaunch began the writers had several holes to fill with O'Brien, Word, & Odo gone & Sisko with the Prophets. I liked the additions to the DS9 crew, they were different which added interest for me to keep reading.

The missing years from the DS9 saga & the events that led to the various characters leaving to pursue other things have been answered satisfactory for me quite honestly. The only thing that really got me was Sisko in RBoE but that has been softened now, the man is flawed like everyone else but is passionate & caring too.

The new crews of TNG I've really liked, except for a few in Before Dishonor & I am really excited to see what's up next in the Bajor sector.
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Old July 5 2012, 11:45 PM   #10
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Re: Being put off by what you hear... [SPOILERS]

CaptainDonovin wrote: View Post
For me the answer to the question is the opposite, I'm encouraged by what has happened.
Well, it's worth bearing in mind that Kinggodzillak hasn't actually read the books yet, so he doesn't actually know exactly what has happened yet.

In that context I think it's perfectly natural to feel concerned, after all as fans we have a strong emotional bond to the material and feel more than a little protective towards both characters and real estate. But as was pointed out in other recent threads, one shouldn't be too concerned about feeling concerned, in a way - because after all, we want for these stories to make us feel something. We want the stakes to be high.

The reason we care about DS9 so much is because it made us feel so strongly and think so heavily, and more often than not it was the dark moments that did it, not just the happy endings. If you want the novels to be true to the series and espouse the same qualities, they must be free to go to these painful places as well.

The alternative is a novel line that's afraid to take any chances, or not allowed to change the status quo. Which I think wouldn't attract the caliber of authors we are enjoying today. And frankly, it seems to me that version of the novel line has a more far more probable existence: I'm still astonished and positively surprised the editors and DRGIII were allowed to do what they did. That's something to be happy about if you look at it in this way.

(I think this version was a bit more eloquent and to the point, but oh well .)

And just to reiterate, it looks like Raise, in concluding its arc, actually left things off at a rather good place for long-time fans of the series.
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Old July 6 2012, 12:03 AM   #11
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Re: Being put off by what you hear... [SPOILERS]

Kinggodzillak wrote: View Post
Suddenly there seemed to be absolutely no point; if this was a story where five years of it could glossed over without explanation
Have you ever been to a high school reunion? You don't follow every event in all your old friends' and acquaintances' past lives, and yet you can have a thoroughly wonderful time, decades after your last meeting, catching up with old friends - and sometimes wondering (but not always finding out) what bizarre/mundane events might have led to them having children from several marriages, or how they lost a limb, or why they switched careers, or why they decided to have the facelift, or where some mutual friend ended up who wasn't at the reunion.

The TOS movies gave us a short, mysterious gap between the TV series and ST:TMP, during which time many, many changes happened - and a longer, mysterious gap between TMP and ST II, where other less obvious changes might have been happening. In fact, we had come to realize that there was a long, mysterious gap between "The Cage" and "Where No Man Has Gone Before" - and more unexplained history between "Where No Man..." and the series proper.

was it really much of a story worth following to begin with?
To tell the truth, I wasn't all that intrigued to find out who "the Ascendants" were - that aspect was the least interesting (to me) of the Relaunch's developing subplots - so I'm not the best person to ask, but I didn't mind the jumps in time that "New Frontier" went through, and how there was suddenly new, recent backstory that had yet to be fully revealed. So a time jump for DS9 was of little concern to me.

Do you not recall the endless posts, demanding of Marco, "When is DS9 going to catch up with the rest of the 24th century novels?"
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Old July 6 2012, 03:15 AM   #12
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Re: Being put off by what you hear... [SPOILERS]

Kinggodzillak wrote: View Post
A few years ago I picked up the DS9 Relaunch omnibus Twist of Faith, and really rather enjoyed it. I hadn't been following the relaunch but was eager to find out what happened after the series finale, and was grateful to have this new jump-on point. I was also really pleased that finally we'd get to see Kira in charge of the station being even more awesome than ever. I make no secret of the fact that she's my fave Trek character ever, so this was all good.

Then it was on to the second omnibus, These Haunted Seas. Finished that - and then The Jump happened. Where the DS9 series suddenly jumped over five years in order to catch up with the rest of the TNG verse novels.

Two things happened here to kill my enthusiasm for the range. First, although I'd only read these two omnibuses, I had bought every relaunch book up to and including The Never Ending Sacrifice in anticipation of breezing right through them - but I never did. Suddenly there seemed to be absolutely no point; if this was a story where five years of it could glossed over without explanation, was it really much of a story worth following to begin with? It had started well, and things like Unity and Warpath and suchlike sounded interesting, but I wondered what was the point of reading them when whatever they were leading up to now clearly wasn't going to happen. It wasn't really a case of "GRR, I AM SO ANGRY ABOUT THIS AND MY RAGE IS INSATIABLE, RAAAH!!!", more "Oh, okay. Never mind then." And to this day, they're sat on my bookshelf unread.
While I can kind of understand this attitude, I have to strongly disagree. Just because the Ascendants storyline wasn't finished doesn't mean that the stories written after Unity suddenly stop being good stories, because they really really are. And like others have said, the Ascdendnts stuff really is a fairly minor part of the indvidiual books, so each one does still tell it's own complete stories.

Secondly...hearing about what happened to the characters after the five year jump. Now, I'm aware I'm leaving myself wide open here to cries of "So let me get this straight...you're complaining about things that are happening in books you've never actually read?", but just hear me out here. Because although I may not have read the books, I have tried to keep up with what's going on in them on this forum and elsewhere.

The characters were what made the show for me, and I suspect for most people, so I was interested to hear what had happened to them during that gap. We all have our favorites, but I'm sure few could deny that Sisko and Kira were the heart of the show, so when reviews and discussion threads for the first Typhon Pact books came up, and their roles were mentioned...well. Again, I've not read these books, and I'm well aware that I'm on shaky ground and likely to be jumped on for saying this, but what I was hearing did absolutely nothing to lure me back to the series. I know, it's silly to judge something you've not experienced, but the point of reading other people's reviews is to get an idea for yourself whether or not you'd want to read the story, and the mentions of a Sisko who would run away from his family or of Kira being reduced from main to minor character...well, they weren't really making me keen to go out and pick up those books.
Most of what you're talking about there seems to be mostly from RBOE, and a lot of that stuff has been given a lot more attention in the new books, and most people seem to be pretty happy with what's occurred in them. I'm only just now on the second chapter of Plauges of Night (the first new books), so this is mostly coming from the threads. I think it's also worth keeping in mind that a lot of what we've been getting right now is set up for new stories, so things are probably going to change for the better as we get more DS9 stories. Basically what they've done is the same as what Lost did in it's 4th season, and BSG did in it's third. Neither of those shows started with their characters in the best places, but things did improve as they went on (well, as much as they did on those shows).
Same for the rest of the cast; I never really warmed to Vaughn or Ensign Chiri s'Thingy or any of the other new characters, but having only two or three tv show characters left on the station, with the rest off doing other things? So, what, do I have to buy books from other series to find out what Captain Dax is up to?
As for the new characters, I have the complete opposite feelings. At this point Vaughn, Ro, Prynn, Shar, and Taran'atar are just as much a part of the DS9 cast as anyone from the show. Honestly, at this point I tend to associate Ro more with DS9 than I do with TNG.
So I just now came on here tonight to see if things might be looking up with the latest novels, having not read any Trek all year, and had a look at the thread for Raise the Dawn, to see how the DS9 universe was looking in its latest installment. Maybe, I dared to hope, they'd have come to their senses and maybe brought Kira back to the station, realising that sidelining such a great character wasn't such a good move after all.

The last thing I was expecting to find people talking about was



Nevertheless, here we are.

I can appreciate now what the Janeway fans were going through when Before Dishonor was published. Not gonna shout and scream and demand she be brought back this instant, dammit!. I'm not gonna waggle my finger and say that Pocket won't be getting any more of my money ever again, cos they've not really had much of it since The Jump. I'm only one reader, they're not going to care about my money or my opinion. Just wanted to say that if all this is true, it seems like such a shame. Such a waste of a great character and a great location.
Well, like I said, I haven't read the new books myself yet, but from what I've read what happened
And I was just wondering if anyone else ever felt the same; not necessarily about DS9 but any of the relaunch series, where you're put off a series by reviews and word of mouth, where nothing you hear about it inspires you to go back and give it another chance. I don't want the writers of these books to think that I'm attacking their books for the sake of it - like I said, I haven't read these books - but none of the reviews and threads that mention where the DS9 novel series is at the moment have made me think "Ooh, I must drop everything and go read that right now!" Quite the reverse, unfortunately, culminating in the events of Raise the Dawn.

Again, I want to make it clear that this isn't a ranting screaming OH MY GOD HOW COULD YOU DO THIS, YOU CRAZY PEOPLE I HATE YOUR BOOK THAT I'VE NEVER READ type of thread. I was just wondering if anyone else had been put off by similar kinds of things in other series.

And I also have to ask; with the original cast gone and the setting all over the place (to put it mildly) at what point do the relaunches cease to be the series they're based on, and start being some other series entirely? And when they do become something else entirely...where do we go for stories based on what it was originally? Here's hoping there's something set in the TV series era to tie in with the 20th anniversary next year...
As long as the stories are good I'm not that concerned with the title.
Honestly my desire for stories set during the series, would simply to see the regular authors handle the time frame, not a need for something familiar. We don't really need stories set during the shows, we've already gotten 108 (soon to be 109) TOS stories, 178 TNG stories, 173 DS9 stories, 168 VGR stories, and 97 ENT stories (OK maybe we could use more ENT stories, just to even things out). I think it's a lot more interesting to get stories that move things forward.
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Old July 6 2012, 05:41 PM   #13
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Re: Being put off by what you hear... [SPOILERS]

Kinggodzillak wrote: View Post
A few years ago I picked up the DS9 Relaunch omnibus Twist of Faith, and really rather enjoyed it. I hadn't been following the relaunch but was eager to find out what happened after the series finale, and was grateful to have this new jump-on point. I was also really pleased that finally we'd get to see Kira in charge of the station being even more awesome than ever. I make no secret of the fact that she's my fave Trek character ever, so this was all good.

Then it was on to the second omnibus, These Haunted Seas. Finished that - and then The Jump happened. Where the DS9 series suddenly jumped over five years in order to catch up with the rest of the TNG verse novels.
If I am reading this correctly, you read the first omnibus, which covered the first four novels, then got and read the second omnibus which covered the Mission Gamma novels. The Jump actually takes place several more novels away. Aside from those two omnibus' there are still Rising Son, Unity, Worlds of DS9 (all three books which contain two novellas each --Christopher Bennett, am I correct in the terminology?--). These are followed by another Trilogy which contains Warpath, Fearful Symmetry, and Soul Key.

Then the jump happens. As many others have stated, there are other just as long jumps in the Star Trek universe (as filmed) that did not have stories told about them.

What is different here is that we have an event that has been foreshadowed in the novels that occurs in the gap. Then we rejoin after it all happens and we see some of the aftermath. Right now we are getting hints of what occurred in the gap. But that is really ok. Not everything needs to have a whole novel devoted to it. We may get a novel in the future set in the gap, or it may just continue to be revealed little by little.

Everything doesn't need to be told sequentially after all. DS9 is now in the "modern" trek-lit era which facilitates story telling across the broader tapestry. But this doesn't mean that we may never see a novel placed during the gap. We do have questions of what happened, but it doesn't detract from the Story.

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Old July 6 2012, 06:13 PM   #14
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Re: Being put off by what you hear... [SPOILERS]

Mike Winters wrote: View Post
If I am reading this correctly, you read the first omnibus, which covered the first four novels, then got and read the second omnibus which covered the Mission Gamma novels.
Actually the second omnibus only covered the first two M:G novels, Twilight and This Gray Spirit. They are followed by Cathedral and Lesser Evil, which are only available as single volumes (since the omnibuses didn't sell well enough to warrant doing more, apparently).

Worlds of DS9 (all three books which contain two novellas each --Christopher Bennett, am I correct in the terminology?--).
No, I believe each installment of WoDS9 is a short novel in the 50,000-word range. A novella is 17,500-40,000.
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Old July 6 2012, 06:30 PM   #15
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Re: Being put off by what you hear... [SPOILERS]

Really I was quite pumped about the concept of the Ascendant story arc. Really seemed original and a climatic way to involve the whole of the DS9 crew once again. I still wanna know how it's gonna turn out for that matter, but the fast forward a few years later, while yeah the TNG/VOY novels moved ahead more quickly, is kind of a turn off.

It's like watching Sacrifice of Angels, then having season 5's cliffhanger released later. You know it's gonna be resolved and everything's going to be fine even if you don't know quite how it's going to happen yet. True enough you knew the good guys would pull it off without any stipulations in the series, but novels tend to have the good guys take casualties/fail more often than tv does.

Don't suppose anyone's heard a time frame on when we'll get the next DS9 relaunch novel?

Anyways, I thought the relaunch crew was pretty good. Shar and Ro add very interesting and unique dynamics to the story. Vaughn I have a hard time warming up to. Honestly, he just seems to know/be able to do everything, on a first name basis with everyone important and has no real character flaw besides being a deadbeat dad. Really seems kinda Mary Sue'ish. Prynn really seems to be around just to resolve that said flaw and because they need a pilot. Nog's done a great job taking O'brien's job and Matthias may be the first counselor that doesn't really annoy me. It was nice to see Tarses pop back up, the part Romulan was always an interesting character type. Bowers struck me as a glorified extra, but hey... even novels need em. Nice that DS9 actually has seperate tactical/security officers.
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