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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old August 10 2012, 03:07 PM   #1
Ian Keldon
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Should DS9 have ended with the Federation LOSING the Dominion War?

The writers have said that their original intention was to have the Federation and it's allies lose the DW in the finale. That would have shaken up expectations, paid off the "Jack Pack" prediction, and laid the groundwork for the next series which would have been either about the resistance movement (ie EVERYBODY is a Maqis now), or the building of a new Federation after the Dominion is overthrown.
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Old August 10 2012, 03:21 PM   #2
DS9 Gal AZ
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Re: Should DS9 have ended with the Federation LOSING the Dominion War?

That would have been awesome, and probably would've spared us the disastorous failure that was "Enterprise." Sadly, it sounds to "edgy" for Trek to actually let the good guys lose - even if DS9 was the edgiest of the Trek series.
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Old August 10 2012, 03:33 PM   #3
22 Stars
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Re: Should DS9 have ended with the Federation LOSING the Dominion War?

Wow, that would have pissed off a lot of people, but if it was done to make DS9 just the middle chapter, or 'ESB' of Trek, leading into another series, or a film depicting a big WIN, then yes, that would have been great.
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Old August 10 2012, 03:45 PM   #4
F. King Daniel
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Re: Should DS9 have ended with the Federation LOSING the Dominion War?

God no. Trek is supposed about exploring the unknown and having fun.

Plus, you all saw how crappy the mirror universe episodes were. It'd just be more of that, minus the slutty lesbians.
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Old August 10 2012, 03:51 PM   #5
R. Star
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Re: Should DS9 have ended with the Federation LOSING the Dominion War?

I'm curious about your source material on that one.

Certainly this would have shaken up things to say the least. I'd say the most worthwhile thing would be Voyager getting home just to be destroyed by a Jem'Hadar ship.
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Old August 10 2012, 03:59 PM   #6
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Re: Should DS9 have ended with the Federation LOSING the Dominion War?

To be fair the Jack Pack went both ways with who would win and it seemed their first prediction that involved the Romulans joining was more accurate than the latter prediction.

It would have been interesting for the Feds to win, but what was left to carry the franchise I'm glad DS9 ended the war. If it didn't it would probably be a TNG movie with Picard and co ending the war which given they never appeared during the series and we never heard of anything they were up to would be very unsatisfying, especially as the chance of any of the DS9 cast having anything more than a cameo (if they lived) would be disappointing.

Or it was up to Voyager finishing it off as part of their run and I doubt their writers could pull it off in any way other than Endgaming it all...which would make me cry. They might have pulled it off, but the Voy writing staff is different from the DS9 staff, who worked on it for years and it would be tough for them to cover all bases left from DS9 and forward plans for Voy.

The Dominion War was a DS9 thing, save a DS9 film the war should have ended with the end of the series.
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Old August 10 2012, 04:15 PM   #7
Ryan8bit
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Re: Should DS9 have ended with the Federation LOSING the Dominion War?

The Jack Pack prediction was never right. All they ever looked at was events broadly, but they never factored in that personal things can change things greatly as it usually does. They never knew anything about Dukat/Sisko and the prophets/pah wraiths, or Damar's resistance fallout, or Odo's effect on the Founders.

Really, that episode was sealed by the fact that Julian overthrows their entire plan with the help of one person. They just couldn't factor stuff like that in. And that was paid off by Odo helping to save many lives in the end.
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Old August 10 2012, 04:44 PM   #8
Ian Keldon
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Re: Should DS9 have ended with the Federation LOSING the Dominion War?

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
God no. Trek is supposed about exploring the unknown and having fun.
Star Trek is about many things..."having fun" is not one of them, however. The universe holds wonders AND terrors. Not everything or everyone is nice.

Plus, you all saw how crappy the mirror universe episodes were. It'd just be more of that, minus the slutty lesbians.
Would it? What evidence do you have to support that assertion? Certainly the writers were used to handling such stories with sensitivity and a modicum of grace, having written about both the Bajoran resistance AND the Maquis.

R. Star wrote: View Post
I'm curious about your source material on that one.
Various interviews given by the writers after the show ended. My old links aren't working, or I'd post them. I'm looking for fresh sources if they still exist.
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Old August 10 2012, 05:43 PM   #9
F. King Daniel
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Re: Should DS9 have ended with the Federation LOSING the Dominion War?

Ian Keldon wrote:
Star Trek is about many things..."having fun" is not one of them, however.
Yes it is. Otherwise there'd be no "Trials and Tribble-ations"
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Old August 10 2012, 05:47 PM   #10
Ian Keldon
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Re: Should DS9 have ended with the Federation LOSING the Dominion War?

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Ian Keldon wrote:
Star Trek is about many things..."having fun" is not one of them, however.
Yes it is. Otherwise there'd be no "Trials and Tribble-ations"

Sorry, but those are the exception episodes, not the rule. The idea that it would be improper to explore being on the losing side of the DW because "Trek is about having fun" is ludicrous.

And the "exploring" you talk about in Trek has always been about exploring aspects of the human condition, not the "alien of the week" window dressing.
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Old August 10 2012, 06:19 PM   #11
Romulus Prime
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Re: Should DS9 have ended with the Federation LOSING the Dominion War?

Wait, what's wrong with the Mirror Universe episodes? I liked them fine.




And with regards to the topic, I'll echo what's been said: Would have been fine if 1. the next series was already in production before DS9 ends, or 2. there are continuation/bridge movies in production before DS9 ends.
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Old August 10 2012, 06:35 PM   #12
F. King Daniel
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Re: Should DS9 have ended with the Federation LOSING the Dominion War?

Ian Keldon wrote: View Post
KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Ian Keldon wrote:
Star Trek is about many things..."having fun" is not one of them, however.
Yes it is. Otherwise there'd be no "Trials and Tribble-ations"

Sorry, but those are the exception episodes, not the rule. The idea that it would be improper to explore being on the losing side of the DW because "Trek is about having fun" is ludicrous.

And the "exploring" you talk about in Trek has always been about exploring aspects of the human condition, not the "alien of the week" window dressing.
Star Trek has always been an optimistic vision of the future. To end with the Dominion winning, setting up a follow-up in a generic crapsack universe would entirely miss that point.

Shows like Battlestar Galactica are certainly not something Trek should ever strive to emulate.
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Old August 11 2012, 01:36 AM   #13
Ian Keldon
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Re: Should DS9 have ended with the Federation LOSING the Dominion War?

Romulus Prime wrote: View Post
And with regards to the topic, I'll echo what's been said: Would have been fine if 1. the next series was already in production before DS9 ends, or 2. there are continuation/bridge movies in production before DS9 ends.
Which was what the rank and file writers were hoping for, perhaps naively, given what Berman told the senior creatives.
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Old August 11 2012, 01:39 AM   #14
Ian Keldon
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Re: Should DS9 have ended with the Federation LOSING the Dominion War?

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Star Trek has always been an optimistic vision of the future. To end with the Dominion winning, setting up a follow-up in a generic crapsack universe would entirely miss that point.

Shows like Battlestar Galactica are certainly not something Trek should ever strive to emulate.
Optimistic does not mean "Polyanna", as you would have it.

The original Battlestar Galactica was optimistic in it's outlook while dealing with a horrific theme. Perhaps a little TOO optimistic, but the point is that you can find a balance between the two.

DS9 specialized in telling stories about how Federation values were tested to the breaking point, and generally held up. That's pretty optimistic. Even in the depths of the DW, they fought to maintain who and what they were, despite all temptations.

Which made the rare failue (ITPM, for example) all the more poignant.
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Old August 11 2012, 06:32 AM   #15
Paper Moon
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Re: Should DS9 have ended with the Federation LOSING the Dominion War?

Re the OP's question: No, DS9 should not have ended with a Dominion victory.

The show was already rushing to tie everything up at the end. A Dominion victory would have prevented many, many threads from getting tied up. And they would have been no guarantee that another series would happen. They'd be rolling the dice big time. And if they lost, we'd be stuck with an ending that'd make TATV look rosy by comparison.

If anything, they should have started the war a year sooner (which was their original plan, I believe), and have the Dominion win in early season 7. Then have the rest of the show be about throwing off the yoke of the Dominion, with the finale seeing the Feds finally drive the Dominion back through the wormhole. They could have been really bold and compressed several years into that season and done some really interesting stuff.

But end the show with Weyoun and Damar (or Broca or whomever) winning? Nope, not for me.

(Hell, actually, if they were gonna do the war sooner, I'd have the war start at the end of season 4, end at the beginning of season 7, and have the rest of season 7 be about the recovery. The finale would depict Bajor coming into the Federation. Now that would have been good full circle stuff from "Emissary.")
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