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Science and Technology "Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." - Carl Sagan.

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Old August 31 2012, 01:13 PM   #226
Alidar Jarok
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Re: Ancient Aliens

The Castellan wrote: View Post
I mean we go from living in caves, eating banans and picking lice off each other, and then we go to building huge, meholithic structures, and those involve cutting out these massive pieces of rock, weighing up to 1,000 tons in some cases, and then moving these rocks to the building site
You're talking about a development that happened gradually over a period of 2 million years (maybe more, I'm not sure the diet of the Australopithecus). There's a clear line of development to the extent the archaeological record preserves it.

And it seems to me, that the average Mayan had more knowledge about mathematics, astronomy and so than what would be today's 'educated man'.
How do you know what the average Maya knew? These things weren't built as a hobby by the average Maya, they were organized by an elite class who certainly had less knowledge of astronomy than our elite astronomers do.

As for not being able to build it today. I've seen a program that recreated Stonehenge using technology of the time (no wheels for one). They also did it with about a third of the people as would probably have been used because they relied on volunteers as opposed to being the leaders of an autocratic dictatorship/religion.
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Old August 31 2012, 01:39 PM   #227
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Re: Ancient Aliens

The Castellan wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Here's what I don't understand about abductions. Supposedly they have been abducting humans and probing them for centuries now. Surely they, Mr. Interstellar Travellers, have found out everything there is to know by now? They are already FAR beyond us in science and probing science and yet they still keep scooping people up and examining them.

How many cows do we dissect to find out more about cows these days? And we're primitives!

I can't help but suspect there is some sadism involved here. Either that or they are getting paid by their authorities for the "research", like the Japanese with the whales.
Perhaps there's something they need from those animals....some sort of nutrients, maybe genetic material or something. I also think with people, they are keeping eyes on them how they are, like when we catch and tag and animal and release them. And as I mentioned, we're dealing with aliens, whom might have a completely different mentality than we do. Also, I have heard of various hybrids being made and they are let into our own world and blend in, it's a pretty interesting way to learn things....also, I have seen really weird looking folks and gotten.....interesting vibes, like they are really not from around here. Maybe they are also tying to improve themselves and/or ourselves.

Also, like I said, some are probably good, some are probably bad. We gotta learn about them and be aware of their existence first before getting all the other answers.
Are you suggesting that the aliens, assuming the visitations are completely alien to Earth, are on an ongoing biological/genetic research experiment. Assuming they are very alien to us, could they be unable to communicate due to very different evolution and are trying to discover a bridge for communication by these biological manipulations?
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Old September 1 2012, 03:45 AM   #228
The Castellan
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
The Castellan wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Here's what I don't understand about abductions. Supposedly they have been abducting humans and probing them for centuries now. Surely they, Mr. Interstellar Travellers, have found out everything there is to know by now? They are already FAR beyond us in science and probing science and yet they still keep scooping people up and examining them.

How many cows do we dissect to find out more about cows these days? And we're primitives!

I can't help but suspect there is some sadism involved here. Either that or they are getting paid by their authorities for the "research", like the Japanese with the whales.
Perhaps there's something they need from those animals....some sort of nutrients, maybe genetic material or something. I also think with people, they are keeping eyes on them how they are, like when we catch and tag and animal and release them. And as I mentioned, we're dealing with aliens, whom might have a completely different mentality than we do. Also, I have heard of various hybrids being made and they are let into our own world and blend in, it's a pretty interesting way to learn things....also, I have seen really weird looking folks and gotten.....interesting vibes, like they are really not from around here. Maybe they are also tying to improve themselves and/or ourselves.

Also, like I said, some are probably good, some are probably bad. We gotta learn about them and be aware of their existence first before getting all the other answers.
Are you suggesting that the aliens, assuming the visitations are completely alien to Earth, are on an ongoing biological/genetic research experiment. Assuming they are very alien to us, could they be unable to communicate due to very different evolution and are trying to discover a bridge for communication by these biological manipulations?
anything's possivle. No way in hell are they going to land on the White House lawn, that's for sure....you'll have every Federal knuckle dragger and military branch bring all the heavy artilery
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Old September 1 2012, 04:13 AM   #229
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Re: Ancient Aliens

The Castellan wrote: View Post
And to me, there's 3 stages regarding controversial issues, like this and they are
1: Denial
2: Opposition and attacks
3: Acceptance.
Indeed. And it turns out this is even true to a smaller or greater extent to ideas that turn out to be completely false. Fortunately, the process only follows that progression for somebody who is in the process of coming around to internalizing those ideas; everyone else stops paying attention at "denial" and forgets about it.
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Old September 1 2012, 04:21 AM   #230
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Re: Ancient Aliens

The Castellan wrote: View Post
sojourner wrote: View Post
Why do most of these arguments for ancient aliens boil down to "I'm too lazy to do that pyramid shit, therefore ancient man must have been too lazy, hence aliens"?
Well, why are we not building megolithic structures now?
We are.

Besides, some of the more recent megoliths -- the great wall of China, for example -- are notorious for having been built primarily with slave labor.

And how come we can't do something folks did many thousands of years ago?
Because slave labor is no longer fashionable.

Why do many cultures speak of men from the stars (Sirius is mentioned quite a lot)?
Why does OURS?
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Old September 1 2012, 04:25 AM   #231
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Re: Ancient Aliens

The Castellan wrote: View Post
anything's possivle. No way in hell are they going to land on the White House lawn, that's for sure....you'll have every Federal knuckle dragger and military branch bring all the heavy artilery
In which case, they would simply land in Canada.
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Old September 1 2012, 04:49 AM   #232
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Re: Ancient Aliens

And none can stand the test of time....the pyramids of egypt, south america, etc...they've been abandoned for thousands of years and they are still there....and they have impressive mathematical measures and properties. All our modern stuff would be destoyed by nature in a very short time if abandoned. Plus they are no way as close in magitude as the ancient structures were....no artitect or engineer could make any of them today.
the ancient structures are rigid amalagamations of rock, their surfaces degraded. built by ramps and slave labor for some made up purpose by a self-deluded religious elite who needed to fill their egos, the scientists and engineers of that day, slaves to an evil machine work out new ways to create, yet the gained knowledge is lost is when that civilization is no more



dams, bridges and skyscrapers are works of true purpose, they provide electricity and passage to new lands, they provide living space and storage for economic need. sometimes filling their builders ego when they increase the construction and design to beat their neighbor. their engineering is magnificent on its own, yet so dull because it is experienced and utilized every day


i would imagine structures like the burg kalifa in that desert and many other large concrete structure's will remain after a few thousand years, degraded yes, but still there standing like monoliths in a wilderness, striking wonder in a foreign travelers path
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Old September 1 2012, 05:01 AM   #233
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Wanderlust wrote: View Post
i would imagine structures like the burg kalifa in that desert and many other large concrete structure's will remain after a few thousand years, degraded yes, but still there standing like monoliths in a wilderness, striking wonder in a foreign travelers path
Like the Statue of Liberty's arm in Planet of the Apes.

Also, would like to see that pic you posted larger. I didn't realize the Eiffel tower was taller than (the tallest?) a pyramid. Assuming that is a big pyramid and not some starter model.
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Old September 1 2012, 05:15 AM   #234
The Castellan
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Re: Ancient Aliens

teacake wrote: View Post
Wanderlust wrote: View Post
i would imagine structures like the burg kalifa in that desert and many other large concrete structure's will remain after a few thousand years, degraded yes, but still there standing like monoliths in a wilderness, striking wonder in a foreign travelers path
Like the Statue of Liberty's arm in Planet of the Apes.

Also, would like to see that pic you posted larger. I didn't realize the Eiffel tower was taller than (the tallest?) a pyramid. Assuming that is a big pyramid and not some starter model.
Plus the pyramid has stones weighing up to 200 tons each. I doubt the Eiffel tower has any pieces that massive. Also, we don't know how they cut them out, sent them down to Giza, lifted them up and fitted them togather with such precision.
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Old September 1 2012, 05:35 AM   #235
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Re: Ancient Aliens

^Yes, we do know. You should try reading about it sometime.
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Old September 1 2012, 01:30 PM   #236
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Most of the documentaries I've seen indicate that the Egyptian Pyramids were built by free crews who held the all the Pharaohs in very high esteem and believed the structure would help him ascend to heaven, become a minor god and help them and their descendants with important things like the reliability of the river rising to irrigate and fertilize their fields. The state provided housing and food to the crews while they were participating in the construction.

Most credit ramps for the process of lifting stones to their final level, but that would have required massive additional effort and material constructing the ramp(s), especially if it was straight instead of spiraling close to the surface of the pyramid. Spiraling ramp(s) would have resulted in added challenges pulling stones around the corners.

I've seen an alternative theory using ropes under the stone and levers to lift it far enough to put a few inches of wood cribbing under it. Once supported by the cribbing the levers could be repositioned to a different knot and the process repeated until the stone was lifted enough to be shifted across adjacent stones on rollers. On the large middle and lower levels dozens of crews could have each been lifting a stone at the same time, with more crews lifting stones on the lower levels as the structure got taller. Each stone could have been lifted a layer in about half an hour by a crew of about twenty men. Large stones like those used in ceiling areas would have required larger crews with more ropes, levers and cribbing.

An alternative theory for transporting stones involved the use of lumber to assemble thick wheels around both ends of the stone and rolling it across the ground like a big heavy barrel. The larger diameter of the wheels would have been easier to pull over primitive roads than small diameter wood rollers, which might have been vulnerable to crushing under the heavy stones. With so many stones cut to a standard size the wheels could have been disassembled and carried back to the quarry for reuse.

By the time the Hebrews sought refuge in Egypt tomb looting had driven the custom to a more secretive process involving underground tunnels and chambers.

Sorry, I may have seen some of these theories before the availability of the web and don't have any links to online versions or pictures.
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Old September 1 2012, 02:33 PM   #237
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Yeah, sure.

A wild ape comes out of the cave, using nothing but bare rocks and mud builds a rocket and goes to the moon.

A wild ape comes out of the cave, using nothing but bare rocks and mud builds a rocket, goes to the next solar system and tells the local wild apes how to come out of the caves, so that they can build their rocket using nothing but bare rocks and mud and go to their moon.

The second is not more difficult to believe at all.
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Old September 1 2012, 07:35 PM   #238
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Except the distance to travel and the why they would. Also, there's the lack of evidence. So it's not impossible to believe, but it is more difficult to believe. Maybe we're the apes that teach the other apes rather than vice versa.

BTW, Colossus at Rhodes, Hanging Gardens of Babylon, Mausoleum at Halicarnassus, Great Lighthouse of Alexandria, Temple of Artemis, and Statue of Zeus. Those are six of the seven wonders of the Ancient World. None of them exist anymore. So it's not really all that helpful to talk about lasting achievement of the ancients.
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Old September 1 2012, 08:21 PM   #239
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
Except the distance to travel and the why they would. Also, there's the lack of evidence. So it's not impossible to believe, but it is more difficult to believe. Maybe we're the apes that teach the other apes rather than vice versa.
Oh, I was kinda sarcastic about the “not more difficult to believe” part. My point was that the incredible human achievements seem, the more unlikely alien help is. If it is so difficult to believe that humans did what they did alone, then it is even more difficult to believe that there would be aliens doing all these same things waiting for us at every corner.

Of course, people here made the argument that after it has happened once they would spread throughout the galaxy in no time, which kinda makes it more likely to have them next door, but... um, if it is so difficult to believe that humans built something as unsophisticated as the pyramids, then the closest space-faring aliens could ever be would be in the next galaxy or cluster of galaxies, damn it.

P.S. Given how well contacts between cultures remote in their development and civility have gone on Earth, I'd be tremendously surprised if any alien attempts to teach us anything had any success beyond speeding up a lesson or two, and giving them a headache.
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Old September 1 2012, 09:04 PM   #240
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Re: Ancient Aliens

The Castellan wrote: View Post
Well, why are we not building megolithic structures now?
Because building techniques have improved tremendously.


Trek fans especially seem very, very uncomfortable with the idea with the idea of ancient aliens, or just aliens in general.....it's like if there's a remote possibility that there's something out there that could be like what they see on the tv screne could be happening, it really annoys them....and I have no clue as to why.
Perhaps they're more intelligent than most.

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