Unification Invasion

[Anwar]

Wasn't this whole thing Sela's idea? Some less-than 25 year old whose claim to fame is being some Admiral's daughter?

Possibly, this whole thing was just the Romulans' way of disgracing her to get her out of the way.

[MikeH92467]

^^^Pretty much my thoughts. I'm sure the Romulan powers that be were more than happy to give her a token force to see if her grandiose plan might actually work. At worst, you lose a small commando force, disown her, publicly execute her and denounce the whole idea as the work of a "renegade element" within the government. At best, they conquer Vulcan, bask in the glory and use Sela as a propoganda tool, until she outlives her usefulness and has an "unfortunate" accident or dies a "heroic" death of some kind.

[ToddKent]

I always wondered what they long term plan was. Let's say they did conquer Vulcan. Then what? They are in the middle of Federation space and completely surrounded by Starfleet. By invading Vulcan they essentially declare war (they'd have to cross the Neutral Zone to get there) with the Federation.

The Rommies may make some BS claim that they have a legal right to the planet due to their history but no one would buy it and it would be time for two super powers to go to war.

But maybe they were looking to start a war for whatever reason. Who knows? And maybe, like it was theorized earlier in this thread it was just Sela's superiors way of setting her up to fail.

[Timo]

The Rommies may make some BS claim that they have a legal right to the planet due to their history but no one would buy it and it would be time for two super powers to go to war.

Yet if Vulcan decides it wants to get conquered, one wonders if Starfleet or the UFP would really do anything about it. Vulcan is supposedly a worthless rock in terms of resources, and its strategic position at the apparent threshold of Romulan space would not change much for the worse even if it ended up being an enemy world. If the Federation did not respect Vulcan right for self-determination, and took the planet back by force, would this benefit or hurt the Federation?

The idea of Vulcans seceding from the UFP at the earliest excuse is not all that unlikely, considering the history of the planet and its alliances. A Vulcan-Romulan(-Reman) alliance might well be preferable to clinging on to the silly humans and their comrades-in-ignorance, and an "invasion" by a small force of fanatics might well be a welcome turn of events. Except perhaps for the factions represented by Spock on the two worlds, but then again, Spock was always in a distinct minority with his thinking.

Timo Saloniemi

[ToddKent]

Timo wrote:

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Vulcan is supposedly a worthless rock in terms of resources, and its strategic position at the apparent threshold of Romulan space would not change much for the worse even if it ended up being an enemy world.

I don't know if I can buy Vulcan being right on the edge of Romulan space. Was that stated in the episode?

I understood that it was relatively close earth and Andor (Andoria?) which would seem to put it deep in Federation space. Which would make it a little awkward if the Romulans decided to set up shop there (even with the Vulcans blessing). It would be like Montana giving themselves over to Chinese rule. The rest of the U.S. just wouldn't stand for it.

And, again, there's the issue of crossing the Neutral Zone in order to get to there. Just the act of the Romulans traveling to Vulcan would be an act of war against the Federation.

[Anwar]

The Neutral Zone is only 2 hours away from Earth, meaning Vulcan probably isn't that far from Romulan Space either.

[RAMA]

The invasion was ill-conceived strategically, however, it MAY be possible that 2000 troops could occupy a planet as long as they had orbital and air support. It helps that Vulcan probably dismantled most if not all it's own military force after it joined the UFP. Unfortunately such an invasion would be untenable in the face of UFP reinforcements.

It's very likely that a company of US Army troops from 2012 could defeat a German division from WWI...a period of roughly 94 years. We're talking 24th century technology, almost 400 years in the future...with a rate of change that is moving even faster than previous eras.

[Timo]

I don't know if I can buy Vulcan being right on the edge of Romulan space. Was that stated in the episode?

Not stated, but both this episode and STXI make it look as if getting from Romulan space to Vulcan takes no time at all - and ST:FC makes it look as if getting from the RNZ to Earth takes very little time, too. That is, hours rather than the days involved in going to DS9 and back.

I understood that it was relatively close earth and Andor (Andoria?) which would seem to put it deep in Federation space. Which would make it a little awkward if the Romulans decided to set up shop there (even with the Vulcans blessing). It would be like Montana giving themselves over to Chinese rule. The rest of the U.S. just wouldn't stand for it.

But basically the UFP is already accepting that the Chinese control Mexico, Canada and and Cuba. And now they are more or less getting Texas or Florida rather than Montana. These pointy-eared bastards have always been very close neighbors to Earth and Vulcan, it seems...

And, again, there's the issue of crossing the Neutral Zone in order to get to there. Just the act of the Romulans traveling to Vulcan would be an act of war against the Federation.

...But only until the RNZ was redefined to also encompass Vulcan.

Besides, it's not as if Romulan ships outside the RNZ would have really triggered any wars in TNG or DS9. Including the ones that fired on Starfleet vessels or installations.

Timo Saloniemi

[Tulaberry whine]

In the DS9 episode Homefront Earth was left defenseless after a group of academy cadets sabotaged the planet's power supply grid, so it's certainly feasible that the 2,000 troops on the transport ships were some kind of strike team sent in to neutralise the planet's defences, etc via sabotage or special ops before a much larger invasion force went in.

I guess in the 24th century with planet-wide systems this is a much more feasible way to invade a planet. Of course, this doesn't really explain how the Romulans planned to hold on to the planet - the logistics would have been mind boggling.

[Finn]

Timo wrote:

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Interestingly enough, we've never actually seen a planetary invasion in Star Trek, so we don't really know how many people it takes. Wars a thousand years ago could be won or lost by a couple of dozen horsemen, even if tens of thousands of fighting men participated. Global wars in the Trek 24th century might be decided by a thousand people with hand phasers. Plus their starships in orbit, of course.

Timo Saloniemi

We sort of did in Voyager, when Seven was forced to go back to the Borg when the Queen threatened to destroy Voyager if she didn't.

We saw hordes of Borg cubes enter orbit over some planet, destroying about everything and assimilating natives.

[Timo]

That's sort of different, though, as the Borg want to give their personal attention to every inhabitant of the planet. A more conventional invasion force would not be interested in individuals, but in crowd control - and while a single Drone can only assimilate a couple of dozen individuals per hour, a single infantryman could plausibly hold tens of thousands of people hostage.

Timo Saloniemi

[Knight Templar]

Nations sometimes do launch invasions that have no military chance of success.

Just look at the Argentine invasion of the Falklands in the 1980s.

[T'Girl]

Timo wrote:

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The idea of Vulcans seceding from the UFP at the earliest excuse is not all that unlikely, considering the history of the planet and its alliances.

And if Vulcan kicked the federation to the curb, how many other members would depart with her, or soon after? It would not be hard to imagine that Vulcan was responsible for the entry of many of the federation's members. Through the diplomacy and reasoning of Vulcan ambassadors. How many would follow the Vulcans into their new alliance. After all was said and done, there simply might not be any federation left in the area between Vulcan and the RNZ.

Timo wrote:

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Vulcan ... I understood that it was relatively close earth and Andor (Andoria?) which would seem to put it deep in Federation space.

Earth/Vulcan would have been at the core of the federation in it's (the federation's) early days, and the Romulans would have been near that core. But as the federation grew, the old core's distance to the Romulans (and the Klingons) would have stayed the same.

Any growth would have by necessity been away from the Romulans/Klingons. The growth would have been "asymmetrical."

Over time, the old 22nd century core of the federation would be off to one side, and not in the middle of the 24th century federation.








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[Timo]

Nations sometimes do launch invasions that have no military chance of success.

Just look at the Argentine invasion of the Falklands in the 1980s.

Hmh? It was the British retaking of the islands that had virtually no chance of success. Thatcher decided to attempt anyway; had she faced that invasion just twelve months later, Britain would certainly have lost the islands, as the Royal Navy would no longer have had amphibious warfare vessels capable of operating across two oceans.

Any growth would have by necessity been away from the Romulans/Klingons. The growth would have been "asymmetrical."

Quite so. And even though ENT featured contact with Klingons, it didn't actually suggest border conflicts yet; the Romulans would be the closer enemy of these two.

Although one might also speculate that when Archer's heroes dispersed the Delphic Expanse, this rearranged national borders overnight, and saw both of Earth's expansionist neighbor empires engage in a conquest and expansion spree that brought them closer to Earth than ever before.

Timo Saloniemi

[Knight Templar]

Timo wrote:

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Hmh? It was the British retaking of the islands that had virtually no chance of success. Thatcher decided to attempt anyway; had she faced that invasion just twelve months later, Britain would certainly have lost the islands, as the Royal Navy would no longer have had amphibious warfare vessels capable of operating across two oceans.

No.

It was Argentina that had virtually no chance of success. Because

1) Their military was little more than an internal police force which had spent a decade torturing and murdering people inside Argentina itself.

2) Argentina figured the British would not fight and made no preparations for the British retaking the islands. Argentina knew that if the British fought, that Argentina would lose.

Especially as it was an unspoken truth that if the British got in trouble, the U.S. would send a carrier battle group and win the war for them.