Star Trek Vanguard: In Tempest's wake by Dayton Ward

[shanejayell]

I'd rather own a book, thanks.

*sigh*

[Sho]

^ You mean a codex ...

[JD]

wahwahkits wrote:

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Bit of a shitty thing to do making it e-book only, a lot of people like myself have faithfully bought all the Vanguard books and now won't get to read this.

I love the fact that they've gone back to doing E-book releases. It's a great way to both get more Trek Lit in the year, and it's an opportunity to tell smaller stories that we wouldn't get if they only did paperbacks.

[RonG]

RonG wrote:

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While I'm sure it'll be well-written, I have to say that (according to currently-known details about this novella), I'm kind of disappointed with the decision to revisit VAN so soon.

Authors and editors have been praised due to the decision to give the VAN series a proper finale, making it a complete story with beginning, middle and end. Less than a year later, we have another "ending" / epilogue, etc.

Just seems to me a bit of "one more trip to the well"...

I would love to hear your thoughts on this point -
How do you feel about having a "second finale" so soon after the "official finale" of VAN?

On an unrelated note - Happy Birthday wishes go to Dayton Ward!

[Christopher]

RonG wrote:

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I would love to hear your thoughts on this point -
How do you feel about having a "second finale" so soon after the "official finale" of VAN?

I don't think that's an accurate characterization. Here's what Dayton's revealed about it so far:

• The label is supposed to be TOS rather than Vanguard.
• It is "a 'coda' of sorts."
• It's told mostly from the perspective of non-VNG characters.

So that tells me it's not a "Vanguard finale," but a TOS tale dealing with some of the broader consequences/aftermath of the events of VNG.

[RonG]

Christopher wrote:

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I don't think that's an accurate characterization. Here's what Dayton's revealed about it so far:

• The label is supposed to be TOS rather than Vanguard.
• It is "a 'coda' of sorts."
• It's told mostly from the perspective of non-VNG characters.

So that tells me it's not a "Vanguard finale," but a TOS tale dealing with some of the broader consequences/aftermath of the events of VNG.

you have a point there, Christopher. As I mentioned in the past, VAN (or VNG) as a complete story (though very much a part of the larger Trek universe) is a shining example of both top notch planning and execution by everyone involved.

Having a "post-finale Finale" kind of ruins that for me, so I hope you're right.

As to your last point, doesn't a lot of TOS proper (and TOS films) deal with what you termed the broader consequences/aftermath of the events of VNG?

[ATimson]

Sho wrote:

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^ You mean a codex ...

While that's probably what shanejayell was trying to say, there's an argument to be made that "owning" isn't necessarily something you can do with the title. At least, that's what the publishers keep trying to insist, that we're only licensing them instead of purchasing them.

[Christopher]

ATimson wrote:

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While that's probably what shanejayell was trying to say, there's an argument to be made that "owning" isn't necessarily something you can do with the title. At least, that's what the publishers keep trying to insist, that we're only licensing them instead of purchasing them.

For what it's worth, Tor Books (publisher of my upcoming Only Superhuman) will be offering all its e-books DRM-free starting soon. I'm not sure if that's exactly what you're talking about, but from what little I understand about the subject, I think it's along the same lines. So maybe things are starting to change.

[Relayer1]

Christopher wrote:

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that tells me it's not a "Vanguard finale," but a TOS tale dealing with some of the broader consequences/aftermath of the events of VNG.

Which I want much more of. Just because Vanguard is over, I still want to see the aftermath spill over into TOS, including the survivors...

[ATimson]

Christopher wrote:

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For what it's worth, Tor Books (publisher of my upcoming Only Superhuman) will be offering all its e-books DRM-free starting soon. I'm not sure if that's exactly what you're talking about, but from what little I understand about the subject, I think it's along the same lines. So maybe things are starting to change.

Removing the DRM will at least remove the technical restrictions to exercising one's ownership of ebooks, but I bet that publishers and vendors are still going to enact license agreements that try to prevent lending and resale.

I can't find S&S's ebook license agreement right now, but here's Amazon's. "Digital Content is licensed, not sold, to you by the Content Provider. ... Unless specifically indicated otherwise, you may not sell, rent, lease, distribute, broadcast, sublicense, or otherwise assign any rights to the Digital Content or any portion of it to any third party, and you may not remove or modify any proprietary notices or labels on the Digital Content." And this applies to DRM-free content too!

[Mage]

The thing is, it's a bit unfair to publish the novella's in e-book only. I don't have an e-reader, and I just don't like sitting behind my compuer reading books. I do that on the couch, or in bed. Or during lunch. We are being forced to either buy e-readers (which I'm not going to do for two or three Trek novella's) or sit behind computers, reading them that way, which some of us just don't like.

Also, and this is my biggest point.... I'm paying for bytes, something I can't hold and only exists in a digital form. If I buy something, I want it to be real, something I actually physically own, not just digitally. Personal issue of mine, can't help it. But I don't spend money on something I don't actually own. One computercrash, and I have to buy it again.

Hopefully, Pocket Books wil realise that they can make some extra money by publising these novella's in a binded volume. I mean, they cater to both markets by releasing all the other novels in both paper and digital form, why not with these novella's?


Christopher, I really do see your point, but the simple fact of the matter is, some people just really want to read a book in actual paperformat, whatever their reasons may be. So yes, I strongly urge Pocket to find out if releasing both The Struggle Within and In Tempest's Wake together as one book is possible. Then everybody can read these two novels. Because I highly doubt I'm the only one not spending any money on this, even though I really would love to read them both.

[Sho]

Mage wrote:

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Also, and this is my biggest point.... I'm paying for bytes, something I can't hold and only exists in a digital form. If I buy something, I want it to be real, something I actually physically own, not just digitally. Personal issue of mine, can't help it. But I don't spend money on something I don't actually own. One computercrash, and I have to buy it again.

This comes up so often, and it really bugs me: Computer memory of any variety is not metaphysical, it is very physical. If you buy a DRM-free ebook file and download it to your local computer, you have a physical manifestation of a book on your premises just as with a codex. What's more, "one good fire, and you have to buy it again" equally applies to codices, too (and for that matter, your example usually doesn't apply to ebooks - even vendors of DRM-free ebooks usually allow redownloads from the vendor's site).

Yes, you're talking a gut feeling. That's fine, but own up to it. Don't use and perpetuate notions that are simply factually false. Don't equate haptic and physical. You're a scifi fan; be kind to science. Calling an ebook file non-physical simply amounts to superstition and mystifying technology that is not mythical or magical in any way.

(Note that ATimson of course brings up very valid points in talking about DRM and licensing schemes, and I've been very critical of either on this very board. I've even recommended against going all-in on ebooks just yet in a recent thread, to avoid getting locked in just shy of the dawn of the DRM-free era. So it's not like I'm mindlessly cheerleading for ebooks here, it's just that the physicality argument as it tends to be framed is simply bogus, and if people could wrap their head around that they might have one bogus problem less with ebooks and could instead focus on the real issues the system still carries at this time.)

[Mage]

Sho wrote:

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This comes up so often, and it really bugs me: Computer memory of any variety is not metaphysical, it is very physical. If you buy a DRM-free ebook file and download it to your local computer, you have a physical manifestation of a book on your premises just as with a codex. What's more, "one good fire, and you have to buy it again" equally applies to codices, too.

Yes, you're talking a gut feeling. That's fine, but own up to it. Don't use and perpetuate notions that are simply factually false. Don't equate haptic and physical. You're a scifi fan; be kind to science. Calling an ebook file non-physical simply amounts to superstition and mystifying technology that is not mythical or magical in any way.

There is nothing superstitious to it. It's just the way I feel. Nothing metaphysical either, not to me anyway. I just don't like the idea of it. I'm not a technophobe if that's what your implying.
But I simply prefer a real book. And now I'm basicly forced into buying either new equipment I don't want, or read in a way I don't find enjoyable. And saying I MUST embrace new ideas just because I love SF is it a bit farfetched. Just because an idea is new and technologically progressive, doesn't mean that as a sf-fan I automatically love it.
And honoustly, I find the comment about being superstitious a bit insulting. I understand you don't mean it that way, but that last sentence sound a bit condesending. You make me sound like I'm some sort of low-minded nitwit who's afraid of 'them there machinary' or something.

[Sho]

Mage wrote:

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But I simply prefer a real book.

There's nothing less real about an ebook, darn it! That was the entire point!

It's not about ebooks being better or that you're supposed to buy into them because you like scifi. You're entitled not to want to peruse ebooks. I'm simply saying that ebooks aren't any less physical or real than codices because that's factually false.

[Mage]

Sho wrote:

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There's nothing less real about an ebook, darn it! That was the entire point!

To you perhaps, not to me. I understand very well that bytes on a harddrive exists and aren't some sort of make believe entity that exists in shadows and bynairy code. I understand that when you download something, even a picture from a website, you physically alter the state of your harddrive, meaning that there is something now encoded on it which exists.

But to me, it's not the same. And honoustly, for most people it won't be, even when they are smart enough to understand that an e-book is real. They feel a different connection to a book. You try and make us understand something here, but do you get our point of view? That we feel the need to smell paper, to feel the rustling of the paper, the glossy feel of the paperback cover, or the slight roughness of the hardcover version?
To some people, reading is more then just words, it's a complete experience. I (and countless romantics with me) need that. Cold, hard keyboards and screens don't give me that same feeling. That feeling of looking at my bookcase, smiling at all the little works of art that are in there (not just Trek, but so much more). We need that, that connection.

And an e-book will never give us that. That's not superstition, it's emotion.