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Old July 6 2012, 04:57 AM   #331
BillJ
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
TiberiusMaximus wrote: View Post
No, I'm not. You missed my point. The intention of the scenes may have been to show Phlox as enlightened, but that's not the message the audience received. All we saw (we in general) was Phlox using skewed logic to justify withholding the cure. If the logic was more persuasive, perhaps the message would have come across more clearly. I'm criticizing the execution of the scenes, not the message they were trying to get across.
It also would've helped if his views on the Menk actually matched what we see of them on screen. If a species is using language, organizational skills, hold down jobs and can learn new concepts quickly... they're probably already over the hump.
Are you sure, I worked in a mall during college and I'm sure few there would have qualified as intelligent, sentient beings.
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Old July 6 2012, 01:42 PM   #332
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

BillJ wrote: View Post
It also would've helped if his views on the Menk actually matched what we see of them on screen. If a species is using language, organizational skills, hold down jobs and can learn new concepts quickly... they're probably already over the hump.
They can talk and showed their intelligence when one of them arranged the blood samples according to family or whatever. They cannot hold jobs and learn new stuff because the Valakians do not allow them to be free.
All I am saying is that we cannot turn a blind eye to this when we deliver the cure.
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Old July 6 2012, 02:01 PM   #333
Gov Kodos
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

horatio83 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
It also would've helped if his views on the Menk actually matched what we see of them on screen. If a species is using language, organizational skills, hold down jobs and can learn new concepts quickly... they're probably already over the hump.
They can talk and showed their intelligence when one of them arranged the blood samples according to family or whatever. They cannot hold jobs and learn new stuff because the Valakians do not allow them to be free.
All I am saying is that we cannot turn a blind eye to this when we deliver the cure.
Valkian society doesn't live up to your expectations, thus deserves to be extinguished. No playing god there.
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Old July 6 2012, 02:13 PM   #334
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

This Pagan logic of catastrophes serving a purpose is pretty alien to me and not a part of my argument. Try again.
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Old July 6 2012, 02:21 PM   #335
Gov Kodos
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

horatio83 wrote: View Post
This Pagan logic of catastrophes serving a purpose is pretty alien to me and not a part of my argument. Try again.
It's Phlox's argument. You apparently agree with him.

They cannot hold jobs and learn new stuff because the Valakians do not allow them to be free.
All I am saying is that we cannot turn a blind eye to this when we deliver the cure.
You said it. They aren't living up to your expectations.
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Last edited by Gov Kodos; July 6 2012 at 02:35 PM.
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Old July 6 2012, 02:35 PM   #336
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

Aha so your expectations are that slavery is fine.

Either you follow the Prime Directive and stay out of the business of other species or you help them and apply human ethics everywhere. Helping the Valakians with their genetic breakdown while not helping the oppressed Menk is playing pick and choose.
So you favour discretion over rule and once this gets intertwined with economic interests you soon end up with imperialism.
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Old July 6 2012, 02:38 PM   #337
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

So, that's covered. They don't live up to your expectations and deserve to be extinguished.
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Old July 6 2012, 02:56 PM   #338
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

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I think this worst PD episodes and puts the PD in a bad light. I think episodes like Patterns of Force and Who Watches the Watchers are episodes that put the PD in a positive light. Those dealt with the ideas of cultural imperialism and imposing your beliefs on another society. But saying a society should die out rather then have outside influence placed on it, seems contrary to Gene Roddenberry's ideals.
Dear Doctor and Homeward are probably the two episodes that have damaged the Prime Directive the most.
There is no Prime Directive in Dear Doctor -- that's the point. Archer doesn't know where the "come in and fix the situation" line gets drawn. Phlox has a point of view, which I gather T'Pol doesn't disagree with, since we don't see her argue otherwise (at least not on the cure issue; on the warp drive issue, she strongly counsels against sharing the technology), and I expect Starfleet would give Adm. Forrest's stock answer: You're out there, Jon, we're not; do what you think is best.

You really can't compare the episode with TOS or later series, where there already is an established Directive.
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Old July 6 2012, 03:56 PM   #339
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Aha so your expectations are that slavery is fine.

Either you follow the Prime Directive and stay out of the business of other species or you help them and apply human ethics everywhere. Helping the Valakians with their genetic breakdown while not helping the oppressed Menk is playing pick and choose.
So you favour discretion over rule and once this gets intertwined with economic interests you soon end up with imperialism.
So letting billions of people die is morally superior then saving them because their society is doing something you think is morally questionable? You are making an either or argument and ignoring there is a huge middle ground between letting societies die and micro managing them.

Plus you haven't proven the Valakians supposed mistreatment of the Menk was that harsh and even if it was, why should innocent women and children die because of something their government is doing?
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Old July 6 2012, 04:19 PM   #340
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

The Overlord wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
Aha so your expectations are that slavery is fine.

Either you follow the Prime Directive and stay out of the business of other species or you help them and apply human ethics everywhere. Helping the Valakians with their genetic breakdown while not helping the oppressed Menk is playing pick and choose.
So you favour discretion over rule and once this gets intertwined with economic interests you soon end up with imperialism.
So letting billions of people die is morally superior then saving them because their society is doing something you think is morally questionable? You are making an either or argument and ignoring there is a huge middle ground between letting societies die and micro managing them.

Plus you haven't proven the Valakians supposed mistreatment of the Menk was that harsh and even if it was, why should innocent women and children die because of something their government is doing?
They're being kept enslaved and denied education to keep them ignorant enough to be enslaved. They are allowed no good land. Sure, there's no evidence of being beaten, or wholesale murdered, but, the treatment is harsh, nonetheless.
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Old July 6 2012, 04:25 PM   #341
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

The Overlord wrote: View Post
Plus you haven't proven the Valakians supposed mistreatment of the Menk was that harsh and even if it was, why should innocent women and children die because of something their government is doing?
As Phlox has pointed out this is not "something their government is doing" (not that it matters as every citizen is responsible for the actions of his government in a democracy) but a very deeply rooted behaviour which enables a peaceful coexistence between two species.

When viewing the issue not from Phlox' biological but from a human ethical standpoint, the very standpoint which drove Archer to help the Valakians, you cannot really arrive at a "slaveholding is OK as long as the slaveholder is nice to his slaves" stance.
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Old July 6 2012, 04:40 PM   #342
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

horatio83 wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post
Plus you haven't proven the Valakians supposed mistreatment of the Menk was that harsh and even if it was, why should innocent women and children die because of something their government is doing?
As Phlox has pointed out this is not "something their government is doing" (not that it matters as every citizen is responsible for the actions of his government in a democracy) but a very deeply rooted behaviour which enables a peaceful coexistence between two species.
Furthermore the Valakians do not necessarily die, they merely suffer from a genetic breakdown. As the people who argue for pick and choose always point out, the future is uncertain.
How do they know all Valakians are doing this? How do we know they are not Valakians trying to change things? Slavery was wide spread in many societies in the past, but that is not the case now. What about the children, should they be punished for their father's sins. It seems like Archer and Phlox are not taking these factors into consideration.

Also genetic breakdown thing is extremely bad science, in so many ways, all this junk science completely undermines the episode.

Phlox and Archer condemned these people to death, it doesn't matter if something else comes along and saves them later, that does not negate the callousness of Archer and Phlox's original action. If I see a baby in trouble and choose not save it, the fact that someone else saved it later, doesn't negative the immorality of my original inaction. Archer is supposed to be a hero, having him do nothing while billions die is not heroic.


Sindatur wrote: View Post
They're being kept enslaved and denied education to keep them ignorant enough to be enslaved. They are allowed no good land. Sure, there's no evidence of being beaten, or wholesale murdered, but, the treatment is harsh, nonetheless.
How does that justify letting billions of Valakians die? Does the Cardassian Union's actions on Bajor justify the Dominion killing 800 million Cardassians? Because the Cardassian Union's actions on Bajor are a million times worse then what the Valakians did to the Menk and yet I don't think we were supposed to cheer when the Dominion killed 800 million Cardassians.
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Old July 6 2012, 04:49 PM   #343
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

Harsh words from somebody who doesn't want Archer to at least ask the Valakians to end the enslavement of an entire species.
You think there is an easy way out, just pick your favourite and fuck the other species whereas I think that whatever you do, help one, both or none, is a monstrosity.
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Old July 6 2012, 04:49 PM   #344
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

I don't see what's wrong with applying human ethics.

When the Romulans go out they apply Romulan ethics wherever they go. The Klingons most certainly roll with Klingon ethics in interactions with all other species. The Ferengi apply Ferengi ethics.

The best ethics for humans to use would be human ethics, rather than trying to make up some sort of new ethics as they go along.
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Old July 6 2012, 04:54 PM   #345
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Harsh words from somebody who doesn't want Archer to at least ask the Valakians to end the enslavement of an entire species.
You think there is an easy way out, just pick your favourite and fuck the other species whereas I think that whatever you do, help one, both or none, is a monstrosity.
Letting billions of people die is greater monstrosity, in my opinion. Societies can change for the better, if you give them time, dead people cannot change for the better.

Isn't one of the messages of Star Trek is that people have the ability to grow and become better, to change their ways no matter how ingrained they are? Pholx and Archer denied that chance for change to the Valakians and that to me is act of evil. Phlox and Archer flying off to their next adventures while women and children are dying on that planet is not even remotely heroic.
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