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Old June 2 2012, 04:33 AM   #256
sonak
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Yeah, that's why I just described how horrific the consequences of my Prime Directive advocacy, being passive while millions or billions people die, actually is.

Internal affair? The entire thing is an internal affair! Either you help everybody or nobody. When you help group A you hurt group B and vice versa. An arbitrary pick and choose game is not a viable option.

If you have to literally change reality via viewing the Menk first as monkeys, than denying that from a human perspective (which is not my perspective but the one of anti-PD folks which I have to adopt here) they are slaves who have the right to be free and now implying along similar lines that they could not cope with freedom (it sounds like the stuff slave owners say) your argument that the Federation can actually play such pick and choose games stands on very shaky grounds.

Your ill-thought off position reveals what the lack of a Prime Directive (and a lack of the inverse, to apply human ethics universally throughout the quadrant) implies, random favouring of some folks at the costs of others. If the self-interests of the Feds comes into this equation you sooner or later end up with imperialism.

it's really the same thing every time with you on this thread isn't it? The same patently absurd all or nothing fallacy.



Hey, the next time you help an old lady cross the street, you also have to help her buy her clothes, fix her meals, and get her a job, okay?



You can't just pick and choose how to help folks.
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Old June 2 2012, 02:56 PM   #257
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

sonak wrote: View Post

it's really the same thing every time with you on this thread isn't it? The same patently absurd all or nothing fallacy.

I'd have an easier time negotiating a tax increase with a member of the Tea Party.
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Old June 2 2012, 03:38 PM   #258
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

If we can step out of the universe for a moment and actually look at what may or may not have been intended with the Prime Directive...

Roddenberry has a writing credit on the episode where the Prime Directive originated (The Return of the Archons). He also has a writing credit on the episodes Assignment: Earth and The Paradise Syndrome. In the former he shows an alien species silently guiding Earth, successfully, through the dawn of its nuclear age and the latter has aliens known as the Preservers abducting members of primitive cultures and putting them on other worlds in order to ensure races survive cataclysmic events that may render a single world uninhabitable. Roddenberry also ran TNG when the episode Pen Pals was produced.

Pen Pals wrote:

SARJENKA [OC]: Data. Data, where are you? Why won't you answer? Are you angry me? Please, please, I'm so afraid. Data, Data, where are you?
PICARD: Wait. Oh, Data. Your whisper from the dark has now become a plea. We cannot turn our backs.
So what do we have the creator of the Prime Directive saying? It seems to this 'intellectually lazy' observer that he is saying that NO law is absolute. The absolutist interpretation comes from after Roddenberry is no longer in control of the series.

The Drumhead wrote:
SATIE: Would it surprise you to learn that you have violated the Prime Directive a total of nine times since you took command of the Enterprise? I must say, Captain, it surprised the hell out of me.
PICARD: My reports to Starfleet document the circumstances in each of those instances
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Old June 2 2012, 05:09 PM   #259
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

Sindatur wrote: View Post
My debate has solely been centered around the exploitation of the Menk being dismissed by those who say not giving the cure is tantamount to Genocide.
Thats because the definition of genocide doesn't include an "unless they are enslaving another group" in the definition of the word.
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Old June 2 2012, 05:44 PM   #260
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

naverhtrad wrote: View Post
Part of the difficulty with US foreign policy right now is that we don't really know where the line is anymore. Take Syria, for example.
Please, no contemporary politics in this thread. You all are having a hard enough time trying to beat each other's positions senseless.


horatio83 wrote: View Post
It is interesting to see how the people who argue for helping the Valakans do, or shall I say have to, pretend that the Menk are lower lifeforms than they actually are...
...Apart from the obvious disgusting fact of calling an intelligent primate who can speak a "helper monkey", this shows once again that the anti-PD faction is not concerned about clear a ethical principle...
horatio83 wrote: View Post
...If you wanna lie, go ahead, that is your prerogative....
horatio83 wrote: View Post
Do you actually read before you respond?...

...Comparing hominids with dogs and monkeys, lack of reading, one-liners responses, I am somehow tempted to use a harsher phrase than intellectual laziness.
ENOUGH.

horatio, I've had it with your inflammatory language, your "anti-PD faction" bashing, and your holier-than-thou condescension. This is not your personal lecture thread, and you are not the do-all and end-all of Trek Law. Back off now. Dig down deep and summon up some civility, or woe betide you.

As for the tireless (tiresome) repetition of points many of you have already made ad nauseum... if you start typing anything resembling "As I already pointed out..." then MOVE ALONG.

And if you do post, cut out the personal digs and "you" this or that. Focus on the opinions, NOT those giving them.

Clear?
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Old June 4 2012, 01:02 AM   #261
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

Sure, whatever. I don't really wanna be tortured by Jack Bauer ...
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Old July 4 2012, 11:28 PM   #262
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

Reed should have relieved Archer, T'Pol and Phlox of duty and had them summarily spaced for what they did.

Imagine that mankind, today, began dying of a genetic plague that had been dormant for millenia but suddenly become active. Within a century of two humanity will be extinct, and no scientist or doctor appears remotely close to finding a cure.

Then imagine an alien spacecraft shows up in orbit. They were passing by this system and noticed the Voyager probes exiting our solar system's edge, and decided to investigate and make contact with the species that launched them. They soon discover mankind's predicament. Fortunately they are benevolent aliens, and begin working towards a cure, making great strides with medical tech way, way ahead of ours.

Then imagine that by chance they discover that some other species... say bottle nose dolphins, or orangutans or such like - is on the verge of developing sentience, and within 15,000 - 25,000 years will be spacefaring and capable of FTL flight. However, they will only likely make this progress if humans aren't around.

Based on this, the aliens withdraw all their assistance, depart, and leave mankind to its dismal fate, so that the dolphins may ascend.

Thousands of years of mankind past, of art, science, love... of philosophers and thinkers and poets and builders and statesmen, and heroes and cowards and villians, saints and sinners, the shared dreams and aspirations of a whole civilisation, a whole species, an entire history ... condemned to extinction with no more thought than would be given to the culling of an overpopulation of rabbits on a corn farm.

Given that this whole business was largely driven by Vulcan ideals (and how the humans were beginning to be affected by Vulcan propaganda and Vulcan ideas of how to do things), and given that the Vulcans themselves had no doubt pulled this exact same stunt multiple times, I'm a bit more sympathetic to Nero and his Roaring Rampage of Revenge. I wouldn't say that the Vulcans deserved what he did to them, but they had been sowing the wind for centuries with crap like the deal the Valakians got... and then Nero turned up, and boy did they reap the whirlwind.
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Old July 5 2012, 04:23 AM   #263
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

Now imagine that you're a bottle nose dolphin and you find out that your chances of reaching your maximum potential have been irrevocably damaged because an alien race came along and decided to render unnatural aid to the currently dominant lifeform which Mother Nature itself deemed not fit to survive.

I'm reminded of how I could never advance at a small company because my boss tended to play favorites rather than judging everyone on their actual merits. He'd hire new people whom he thought were "on the fast track", pay them more than I was making, and they'd turn out to be what the French would call les incompetents.

So which is supposed to suck more, exactly? Having a "benevolent" alien race come along and help you while knowingly screwing over others, or refusing to help you precisely because it would involve knowingly screwing over others? I may not like being on the short end of a non-interference policy, but I can understand that a whole lot better than I can any group that just picks and chooses who deserves to be helped.
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Old July 5 2012, 05:35 AM   #264
sonak
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

DonIago wrote: View Post
Now imagine that you're a bottle nose dolphin and you find out that your chances of reaching your maximum potential have been irrevocably damaged because an alien race came along and decided to render unnatural aid to the currently dominant lifeform which Mother Nature itself deemed not fit to survive.

I'm reminded of how I could never advance at a small company because my boss tended to play favorites rather than judging everyone on their actual merits. He'd hire new people whom he thought were "on the fast track", pay them more than I was making, and they'd turn out to be what the French would call les incompetents.

So which is supposed to suck more, exactly? Having a "benevolent" alien race come along and help you while knowingly screwing over others, or refusing to help you precisely because it would involve knowingly screwing over others? I may not like being on the short end of a non-interference policy, but I can understand that a whole lot better than I can any group that just picks and chooses who deserves to be helped.

Complete nonsense once again. Helping to cure a disease isn't "picking sides" or "picking favorites." Humanitarian aid isn't political, and the idea that you can predict what the "dominant species" was supposed to be is hubris masquerading as neutrality. You've bought into the garbage pseudoscience of this episode, that evolution plays favorites and has goals in mind.


It's sad to see the damage this horrible episode has done.
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Old July 5 2012, 06:06 AM   #265
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

If all of that's true then everything that Deimos brought up is irrelevant anyway. I find it more interesting to discuss the premise we're being given than to summarily dismiss it as "that's not the way it works".

After all, if FTL drives don't work, then by the logic you just invoked there's no point in discussing pretty much anything that comes up in Trek.
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Old July 5 2012, 06:46 AM   #266
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

horatio83 wrote: View Post
I don't really wanna be tortured by Jack Bauer ...
Then don't ever mess with America, especially on our birthday.

♪♪♫♫♪ it our birthday ♪♫♫♪♫
♪♪♫♫♪ it our birthday ♪♫♫♪♫
♪♪♫♫♪ it our birthday ♪♫♫♪♫

DonIago wrote: View Post
Now imagine that you're a bottle nose dolphin and ...
Now imagine that it's 65 million years ago, and you're an intelligent dinosaur, and a giant rock is going to hit Earth and wipe out almost all life, but suddenly a alien spacecraft arrives and is initially willing to adjust the trajectory of the rock a fraction of one degree so it misses Earth.

Oh, too bad the alien doctor just convinces the alien captain to do nothing because in millions of years ...

DonIago wrote: View Post
I may not like being on the short end of a non-interference policy, but I can understand that a whole lot better than I can any group that just picks and chooses who deserves to be helped.
Even through it might have been to my ultimate detriment, I would expect the alien spacecraft's crew to help the intelligent dinosaurs, the fact that it would prevent (maybe) my existence is irrelevant, the dinosaurs need that help then and there. The aliens should "pick and choose" those who they can help at the moment. The intelligent beings right in front of them.


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Old July 5 2012, 06:55 AM   #267
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

DonIago wrote: View Post
Now imagine that you're a bottle nose dolphin and you find out that your chances of reaching your maximum potential have been irrevocably damaged because an alien race came along and decided to render unnatural aid to the currently dominant lifeform which Mother Nature itself deemed not fit to survive.

I'm reminded of how I could never advance at a small company because my boss tended to play favorites rather than judging everyone on their actual merits. He'd hire new people whom he thought were "on the fast track", pay them more than I was making, and they'd turn out to be what the French would call les incompetents.

So which is supposed to suck more, exactly? Having a "benevolent" alien race come along and help you while knowingly screwing over others, or refusing to help you precisely because it would involve knowingly screwing over others? I may not like being on the short end of a non-interference policy, but I can understand that a whole lot better than I can any group that just picks and chooses who deserves to be helped.
I personally think letting a race die off is worse then not letting another race "develop", even though evolution does not work the way that is suggested in this episode.

The bottle nosed dolphin wouldn't even know what it would be "missing" if humans are gone, because they are not sentient. The Menk barely seem sentient, so the same thing applies, they can't ask Archer for help because they don't understand the concept. Besides Mother Nature does deem species to fit or unfit, that implies nature has a plan, it doesn't.

So this would be allowing humans to die on the very off chance it would allow bottle nose dolphins to become the dominant species, even though that is likely impossible. So it would letting humans die off for no good reason. Archer and Phlox's reasoning seems to be based on pseudo science to me.
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Old July 5 2012, 10:02 AM   #268
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

Deimos Anomaly wrote: View Post
I wouldn't say that the Vulcans deserved what he did to them, but they had been sowing the wind for centuries with crap like the deal the Valakians got... and then Nero turned up, and boy did they reap the whirlwind.
First, the decision was Archer's. Second, the Valakians got medicine that amended the symptoms. Third, genocide can never ever be justified.
Your position is to basically play God, to decide which species lives and dies in the Dear Doctor as well as STXI whereas the spirit of the Prime Directive is the very opposite of this, humbleness.
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Old July 5 2012, 10:39 AM   #269
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

Except the Menk were not in danger of dying out. If they had chosen to give the Valakians the medicine that would save them from extinction, this would not make the Menk extinct.

For all Archer's high-horse talk of not wanting to play god, he sure did a great job of playing the devil.

Imagine that a few years later some really valuable ore was found on planet... and the Ferengi got interested, and the Valakians granted them exclusive rights to mine it, in exchange the Ferengi sell them a few old warp ships and school them on how to run the things... wouldn't surprise me if the first think they did would be go looking for humans... for revenge.
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Old July 5 2012, 12:16 PM   #270
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

The Valakians received medicine and were unaware that the cure was withheld from them by the humans so your revenge scenario is highly unrealistic.
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