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Old May 30 2012, 06:58 PM   #151
horatio83
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

Sindatur wrote: View Post
So, you're saying the Federation should tolerate the enslavement of the Menk, but, should be found guilty of Genocide for providing the Genetic cure for the Valakians? Actively supporting the enslavement of one race by saving another? You honeslt don't see the hypocrasy of that position? If you're going to interfere, you have to interfere in both situations, if you're going to ignore one, you need to ignore both. Taking the Valakians side is no less immoral than taking the Menk's side, IMHO.
Yep, you'd have to help both or none. If you apply human ethics galaxy-wide you cannot play pick and choose, you'd have to cure the Valakans and liberate the Menk. Folks who argue against the PD ignore the latter.
Or you stay out and help neither (at the cost of the other) which is obviously what I am arguing for

Not that I have to, Phlox showed neatly that we we perceive as enslavement is a symbiotic relationship. On other worlds (like our own) one sentient species might have killed the other, here they found a stable and peaceful relationship. Precisely because we lack Phlox' view, precisely because we only know our own history and cannot perceive this as anything else but slavery we have no right to interfere on either side.
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Old May 30 2012, 07:04 PM   #152
Mach5
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

Miss Lemon wrote: View Post
Talk about another self-righteous guy.
horatio83 wrote:
Yep, plenty of self-righteousness, simplifications and neat little catchphrases on one side of the debate.
Instead of going at him ad hominem, you could have at least tried to offer some kind of valid counter argument.

He pretty much destroyed the pseudo-scientific foundations on which the whole (so-called) "dilemma" was based. And once that is out of the picture, the rest crumbles by itself.
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Old May 30 2012, 07:08 PM   #153
BillJ
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

horatio83 wrote: View Post

Yep, you'd have to help both or none. If you apply human ethics galaxy-wide you cannot play pick and choose, you'd have to cure the Valakans and liberate the Menk. Folks who argue against the PD ignore the latter.
Or you stay out and help neither (at the cost of the other) which is obviously what I am arguing for.
Free them of what exactly? By Phlox's account they're currently nothing more than intelligent chimps who, may, make an evolutionary leap in a thousand years. You going to make sure that the Valakians put them in zoos' and in forests?

I just re-watched this episode and they don't offer a single reason to save the Valakians other than human stupidity. That, my friend, is the writer leading you to their preferred moral conclusion.

I think the SFdebris (Maximum Strength-Fuck Off! is comic gold) review really says it all, you don't evolve to die. Evolution is about adapting to your environment to survive.
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Old May 30 2012, 07:10 PM   #154
Sindatur
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
So, you're saying the Federation should tolerate the enslavement of the Menk, but, should be found guilty of Genocide for providing the Genetic cure for the Valakians? Actively supporting the enslavement of one race by saving another? You honeslt don't see the hypocrasy of that position? If you're going to interfere, you have to interfere in both situations, if you're going to ignore one, you need to ignore both. Taking the Valakians side is no less immoral than taking the Menk's side, IMHO.
Yep, you'd have to help both or none. If you apply human ethics galaxy-wide you cannot play pick and choose, you'd have to cure the Valakans and liberate the Menk. Folks who argue against the PD ignore the latter.
Or you stay out and help neither (at the cost of the other) which is obviously what I am arguing for

Not that I have to, Phlox showed neatly that we we perceive as enslavement is a symbiotic relationship. On other worlds (like our own) one sentient species might have killed the other, here they found a stable and peaceful relationship. Precisely because we lack Phlox' view, precisely because we only know our own history and cannot perceive this as anything else but slavery we have no right to interfere on either side.
Ah, OK, I got lost, I guess. I thought you were one of the ones calling inaction with the cure Genocide, and then to see you advocating we can't impose our values against slavery on other cultures, it was confusing.
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Old May 30 2012, 07:13 PM   #155
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

I wonder if there are any episodes or books that actually look at both sides of the Prime Directive?
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Old May 30 2012, 07:16 PM   #156
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

I think that all good Prime Directive episodes offer both perspectives. In Dear Doctor it is the human vs. the Denobulan perspective (and despite personally totally siding with Phlox I really would have loved to see the original ending where Archer did not adopt Phlox' suggestion and helped the Valakans), in Cogenitor you sympathize the entire time with Trip and in Pen Pals they decide to help the little girl. I am sure there are more such PD episodes but these are the only ones which come to mind.
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Old May 30 2012, 07:20 PM   #157
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

horatio83 wrote: View Post
I think that all good Prime Directive episodes offer both perspectives.
Then there hasn't been a truly good Prime Directive episode yet.
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Old May 30 2012, 07:24 PM   #158
horatio83
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

Why don't you say then immediately that you want to see an anti-PD story?

I might be a hardcore PD advocate but gee, I rather take one of these controversial stories that shows both perspectives than something one-sided which just reinforces my opinion. Being challenged via the dialectics of a story is more fun.
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Old May 30 2012, 07:27 PM   #159
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Why don't you say then immediately that you want to see an anti-PD story?
I want a balanced Prime Directive story.
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Old May 30 2012, 07:28 PM   #160
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

BillJ wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
I think that all good Prime Directive episodes offer both perspectives.
Then there hasn't been a truly good Prime Directive episode yet.
I loved the shit out of "Who watches the watchers".
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Old May 30 2012, 07:36 PM   #161
horatio83
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

BillJ wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
Why don't you say then immediately that you want to see an anti-PD story?
I want a balanced Prime Directive story.
Plenty of instances where the Prime Directive is broken and everybody is happy with it. I mentioned Pen Pals and TOS, a series which you know better than me, seems to feature more such examples.
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Old May 30 2012, 07:41 PM   #162
BillJ
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

horatio83 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
Why don't you say then immediately that you want to see an anti-PD story?
I want a balanced Prime Directive story.
Plenty of instances where the Prime Directive is broken and everybody is happy with it. I mentioned Pen Pals and TOS, a series which you know better than me, seems to feature more such examples.
Actually, I think Pen Pals is probably the most balanced of the Prime Directive stories and I'd also mention Symbiosis. It's not about how it ends, it's about how they get to that end point.
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Old May 30 2012, 08:58 PM   #163
Miss Lemon
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

Mach5 wrote: View Post
Miss Lemon wrote: View Post
Talk about another self-righteous guy.
Instead of going at him ad hominem, you could have at least tried to offer some kind of valid counter argument.
It's not like he's going to respond, right?

Why don't you try to built your case yourself, preferably without the big words and latin and all...?
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Old May 30 2012, 09:22 PM   #164
Mach5
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

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It's not like he's going to respond, right?
Missing the point.

Miss Lemon wrote: View Post
Why don't you try to built your case yourself, preferably without the big words and latin and all...?
I did my best, but my field is structural engineering, not biology.

And the term "ad hominem" is so common, it's practically Internet lingo.
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Old May 30 2012, 09:25 PM   #165
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Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

bluedana wrote: View Post
Interesting perspective, but that is one person's opinion. Other people, obviously, disagree with that assessment. Each person here gets to have an opinion, whether it is that Archer/Phlox was right, that they were wrong, or something in between. There is no correct answer here, no matter how invested you are in your own opinion.

HopefulRomantic has asked everyone very nicely to tone it down. I am not feeling so nice, so listen up. Enough with the personal attacks, the grudges dragged in from other discussions, and the general disrespect. If you have something new to add, feel free to do so -- civilly. If you've made your point once or several times already, then move on. Any more ad hominem shots will get infractions for trolling. Clear? Good.

Carry on.

arrgh, but that was my whole point. It's not opinion. It's fact that evolution does NOT work that way. Scientific concepts are not like "do you prefer ENT or VOY?"


And as the other poster pointed out, once you get that, you realize that there is no "dilemma." It just falls away.
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