RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 142,373
Posts: 5,558,105
Members: 25,280
Currently online: 523
Newest member: himura_kenshin

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Penumbra
By: Michelle on Jan 31

Trek Commemorative Coins
By: T'Bonz on Jan 30

Urban In Dragon Remake
By: T'Bonz on Jan 30

January-February 2015 Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Jan 30

New Shatner Priceline Commercial
By: T'Bonz on Jan 29

Pine Joins Netflix Series
By: T'Bonz on Jan 29

Ortiz Art Mugs
By: T'Bonz on Jan 28

Ingham Passes
By: T'Bonz on Jan 28

Star Trek Online Celebrates Five Years
By: T'Bonz on Jan 27

WizKids/Star Trek Online Caption Contest
By: T'Bonz on Jan 26


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Enterprise

Enterprise The final frontier has a new beginning in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 30 2012, 06:16 PM   #136
Miss Lemon
Fleet Captain
 
Miss Lemon's Avatar
 
Location: Miss Lemon is chasing dwarves in Middle-earth
Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

sonak wrote: View Post
Before you respond "that's not fair," realize that ALL I DID was change the scenario from the fictitious Trekverse to the real world. Otherwise, same basic concept.
I won't. A few pages back I was asking another poster the same thing actually. In a less accusatory way, I hope.

I'm just wondering why you are so emotional about this whole thing and using words as genocide which really don't apply to this particular episode, IMO.
__________________
Loyalty, honor and a willing heart... I can ask no more than that - Thorin Oakenshield

Hercule Poirot
: I am an imbecile. I see only half of the picture.
Miss Lemon: I don't even see that.
Miss Lemon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30 2012, 06:19 PM   #137
horatio83
Commodore
 
Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

sonak wrote: View Post
I keep seeing you repeat that view, and I must say that I find it an odd one. Ethics is based on sentience and self-awareness, and a concept of rights, not whether one is an alien or not.

Are you saying that if an alien species of intelligent advanced beings were discovered, ethics wouldn't apply to them?
I am not saying that we should fly out there and deny who we are. We should certainly stand behind our values and apply them.
Most of the times this is probably not a problem, when you meet a ship in distress you help those folks.

But when you meet e.g. folks like the Klingons you encounter a species that is in many ways the literal opposite of yourself. You are life-loving and democratic, they are death-loving and aristocratic. If we were on Earth I would not hesitate to say that they have to be crushed (ideologically) as they violate our universal principles. But in space this is not possible unless you wanna wage war against them.
What actually happened, a fragile alliance after centuries of conflict with somebody who is so very unlike yourself, is the better way.


Obviously I am not caring about pragmatic solutions but about the radical implications of ethics. Down here slavery is something which has to be crushed as it violates an absolute human value. But not up there as we have no right to postulate our human absolutes as universally, galaxy-wide absolutes. If everybody did that this would lead to total war.

So in my opinion the very absoluteness of our values paradoxically forbids us from applying them to other species. Naturally a more pragmatic view upon ethics would come to different conclusions.
__________________
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer. - former US Secretary of State and unconvicted war criminal Henry Kissinger
horatio83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30 2012, 06:20 PM   #138
Edit_XYZ
Fleet Captain
 
Edit_XYZ's Avatar
 
Location: At star's end.
Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
In this case, the 'moral relativism' POV is condoning slavery simply because it's practiced by another culture. That's a pretty fundamental part of humanity's moral code you want to betray, horatio83; if you're willing to make such HUGE 'compromises', you can't even really say you have a morality.
Do you even read my posts before you respond? I clearly distinguished between universal human ethics and interspecies ethics so stop with this relativism bullshit. As I said I believe in universal human ethics and slavery is obviously wrong. I am the first one to condemn any postmodern "but it is their way of life" nonsense.
They're called 'moral values' and they are applicable to any conscious/intelligent being.

You want to restrict their applicability to humans - as in condoning slavery/murder/etc at aliens because they're not humans?
And you actually think that's not moral relativism?

And that in the trekverse, where the similarity of aliens to humans removes even the 'but they're too different' shallow excuse?


Here's a question - what if a alien tries to kill you and your family? Do you even defend yourself or do you just let it happen - because it's 'their way' and fully justified in your extreme moral relativism view?
Or what if a human enslaves aliens? I guess he's entitled to it - after all, 'human' morality has no jurisdiction on aliens.

But we are not on Earth, we are in space. When you shove universal human ethics down the throats of non-humans the UFP would become an imperial power at best and something like the Borg at worst. That is not merely immoral, it is utterly wicked. Not intentionally but as a consequence of intellectual laziness.
Nonsense.
The difference is choice.

The borg impose their values by force.

If you follow moral values, you ask this alien being - do you want to die or do you want to live? Do you want to live as a slave or as a free being?
And EVERY conscious/intelligent being has the power/right to make these decisions for himself/herself.
__________________
"Let truth and falsehood grapple ... Truth is strong" - John Milton

Last edited by Edit_XYZ; May 30 2012 at 06:32 PM.
Edit_XYZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30 2012, 06:22 PM   #139
Miss Lemon
Fleet Captain
 
Miss Lemon's Avatar
 
Location: Miss Lemon is chasing dwarves in Middle-earth
Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

For someone claiming other people are trolls you are using the smiley a bit too much. Not really helpful to the discussion.
__________________
Loyalty, honor and a willing heart... I can ask no more than that - Thorin Oakenshield

Hercule Poirot
: I am an imbecile. I see only half of the picture.
Miss Lemon: I don't even see that.
Miss Lemon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30 2012, 06:26 PM   #140
Edit_XYZ
Fleet Captain
 
Edit_XYZ's Avatar
 
Location: At star's end.
Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

Miss Lemon wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Before you respond "that's not fair," realize that ALL I DID was change the scenario from the fictitious Trekverse to the real world. Otherwise, same basic concept.
I won't. A few pages back I was asking another poster the same thing actually. In a less accusatory way, I hope.

I'm just wondering why you are so emotional about this whole thing and using words as genocide which really don't apply to this particular episode, IMO.
Words like 'genocide' most definitely DO apply to the episode - the dissappearance not just of an ethnic group, but of an entire species.
Archer/Phlox could have stopped all this, but chose not to - and this is why this blood stains their hands as well.

It's genocide by inaction, as opposed to genocide by action. And genocide by inaction (you could have stopped it with little risk, but chose not to) is a crime as per criminal law.
__________________
"Let truth and falsehood grapple ... Truth is strong" - John Milton
Edit_XYZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30 2012, 06:29 PM   #141
Edit_XYZ
Fleet Captain
 
Edit_XYZ's Avatar
 
Location: At star's end.
Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

Miss Lemon wrote: View Post
For someone claiming other people are trolls you are using the smiley a bit too much. Not really helpful to the discussion.
I'm using the smiley when it's appropriate.

And horatio83 claiming he's not supporting a 'moral relativism' position when he is blatantly supporting such a 'moral relativism' position (which is: morals don't apply to this group - ANY group - because 'it's not their way') IS a WTF claim, deserving of smileys.
__________________
"Let truth and falsehood grapple ... Truth is strong" - John Milton
Edit_XYZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30 2012, 06:34 PM   #142
Mach5
Rear Admiral
 
Mach5's Avatar
 
Location: Mach5 doesn't like sand. It's coarse and irritating, and it gets everywhere.
Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

sonak wrote: View Post
I recommend looking up SFdebris' review of this awful episode on his site or youtube. He actually has a fair background in science, and he points out how awful the episode was better than a lot of posters here could.
It's here:
http://blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated...review-5896615

And it's pure gold. The guy pretty much buries it.

I especially liked one of the user comments:
As a trained biologist, this episode enrages me every time I think of it, because it's so stuffed full of pseudo-science nonsense. Please, don't... don't make me elaborate, because I could write a whole treatise about this episode's misrepresentation of evolution (and I have done so before on occasions), and how the writers are idiots trying to peddle a 1940s scifi view of it, and it owuld end up with me foaming at the mouth in rage. So yes, there's not even room for debate there: Archer and Phlox did commit genocide for ideological reasons.
__________________
"Religion is something left over from the infancy of our intelligence, it will fade away as we adopt reason and science as our guidelines."
― Bertrand Russell

Last edited by Mach5; May 30 2012 at 06:45 PM.
Mach5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30 2012, 06:36 PM   #143
horatio83
Commodore
 
Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
If you follow moral values, you ask this alien being - do you want to die or do you want to live? Do you want to live as a slave or as a free being?
And every conscious being has the power/right to make these decisions for herself.
Trip asked this question (it is obviously more complicated, the cogenitor would not have been able to answer your simple question as it was not even aware of being a slave; Trip had to show to it what it hasn't known yet to make it realize that it is a slave) but was unable to realize it materially for the cogenitor which made it, having realized that these new-found possibilities can never be realized, commit suicide.

Just going around and asking abstract questions that create empty dreams and cause suicides is not ethical behaviour. If you really wanted to help the cogenitors you'd have to help them in their emancipatory struggle. You'd need agents that can penetrate the security measures just to be able to reach the cogenitors and talk with them, not to mention providing them with the material means they need in their struggle. You have to fight (obviously peacefully) against a whole planet.

These are the radical implications of ethics I wrote about in my last post. Abstract ethics and half-assed efforts do not suffice.
__________________
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer. - former US Secretary of State and unconvicted war criminal Henry Kissinger
horatio83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30 2012, 06:37 PM   #144
Miss Lemon
Fleet Captain
 
Miss Lemon's Avatar
 
Location: Miss Lemon is chasing dwarves in Middle-earth
Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
And horatio83 claiming he's not supporting a 'moral relativism' position when he is blatantly supporting such a 'moral relativism' position (which is: morals don't apply to this group - ANY group - because 'it's not their way') IS a WTF claim, deserving of smileys.
I really wouldn't know, I stopped following this dicussion 3 pages ago when you chimed in and had your little buddy moment with BillJ.
__________________
Loyalty, honor and a willing heart... I can ask no more than that - Thorin Oakenshield

Hercule Poirot
: I am an imbecile. I see only half of the picture.
Miss Lemon: I don't even see that.
Miss Lemon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30 2012, 06:39 PM   #145
Miss Lemon
Fleet Captain
 
Miss Lemon's Avatar
 
Location: Miss Lemon is chasing dwarves in Middle-earth
Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

Mach5 wrote: View Post
It's here:
http://blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated...review-5896615

And it's pure gold. The guy pretty much buries it.
Talk about another self-righteous guy.
__________________
Loyalty, honor and a willing heart... I can ask no more than that - Thorin Oakenshield

Hercule Poirot
: I am an imbecile. I see only half of the picture.
Miss Lemon: I don't even see that.
Miss Lemon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30 2012, 06:44 PM   #146
bluedana
Moderator
 
bluedana's Avatar
 
Location: bluedana
Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

Interesting perspective, but that is one person's opinion. Other people, obviously, disagree with that assessment. Each person here gets to have an opinion, whether it is that Archer/Phlox was right, that they were wrong, or something in between. There is no correct answer here, no matter how invested you are in your own opinion.

HopefulRomantic has asked everyone very nicely to tone it down. I am not feeling so nice, so listen up. Enough with the personal attacks, the grudges dragged in from other discussions, and the general disrespect. If you have something new to add, feel free to do so -- civilly. If you've made your point once or several times already, then move on. Any more ad hominem shots will get infractions for trolling. Clear? Good.

Carry on.
__________________
Fall seven times. Stand up eight. -- Japanese proverb.
bluedana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30 2012, 06:47 PM   #147
horatio83
Commodore
 
Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

Miss Lemon wrote: View Post
Mach5 wrote: View Post
It's here:
http://blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated...review-5896615

And it's pure gold. The guy pretty much buries it.
Talk about another self-righteous guy.
I always thought that the great thing about the Prime Directive is that it is complicated and messy, that it makes you feel uneasy and think again and again and again about it.
__________________
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer. - former US Secretary of State and unconvicted war criminal Henry Kissinger
horatio83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30 2012, 06:50 PM   #148
Edit_XYZ
Fleet Captain
 
Edit_XYZ's Avatar
 
Location: At star's end.
Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
If you follow moral values, you ask this alien being - do you want to die or do you want to live? Do you want to live as a slave or as a free being?
And every conscious being has the power/right to make these decisions for herself.
Trip asked this question but was unable to realize it materially for the cogenitor which made it, having realized that these new-found possibilities can never be realized, commit suicide.
As said, Trip made a morally defensible choice, but hugely uninspired one.

The Congenitor was a sex slave; but a VERY important sex slave for her masters.
If she would have known how to 'play her cards', she - and all others like her - could have been free within mere years.

And she WANTED to be free. She made a choice - to die rather than live as a slave.
You know what, horatio83? It was HER CHOICE to make; when she knew a little more, she considered her life as cattle worse than death. And before, just because she didn't knew enough to realize just how miserable her existence was, does NOT mean she was not utterly miserable.

I have little sympathy for her masters' unrealised benefits; I have little sympathy for slavers in general.


Why was Trip's behavior uninspired? He naively thought the Congenitor would be free immediately and gave her far too naive hopes. He should have prepared her for a lenghtier struggle, not give her such foolish expectations.
Trip needed to read more history.
And because he was naive, it ended with a tragic suicide rather than the liberation of a third of a species from slavery.
__________________
"Let truth and falsehood grapple ... Truth is strong" - John Milton
Edit_XYZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30 2012, 06:50 PM   #149
Sindatur
Vice Admiral
 
Sindatur's Avatar
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

horatio83 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
I keep seeing you repeat that view, and I must say that I find it an odd one. Ethics is based on sentience and self-awareness, and a concept of rights, not whether one is an alien or not.

Are you saying that if an alien species of intelligent advanced beings were discovered, ethics wouldn't apply to them?
I am not saying that we should fly out there and deny who we are. We should certainly stand behind our values and apply them.
Most of the times this is probably not a problem, when you meet a ship in distress you help those folks.

But when you meet e.g. folks like the Klingons you encounter a species that is in many ways the literal opposite of yourself. You are life-loving and democratic, they are death-loving and aristocratic. If we were on Earth I would not hesitate to say that they have to be crushed (ideologically) as they violate our universal principles. But in space this is not possible unless you wanna wage war against them.
What actually happened, a fragile alliance after centuries of conflict with somebody who is so very unlike yourself, is the better way.


Obviously I am not caring about pragmatic solutions but about the radical implications of ethics. Down here slavery is something which has to be crushed as it violates an absolute human value. But not up there as we have no right to postulate our human absolutes as universally, galaxy-wide absolutes. If everybody did that this would lead to total war.

So in my opinion the very absoluteness of our values paradoxically forbids us from applying them to other species. Naturally a more pragmatic view upon ethics would come to different conclusions.
So, you're saying the Federation should tolerate the enslavement of the Menk, but, should be found guilty of Genocide for providing the Genetic cure for the Valakians? Actively supporting the enslavement of one race by saving another? You honeslt don't see the hypocrasy of that position? If you're going to interfere, you have to interfere in both situations, if you're going to ignore one, you need to ignore both. Taking the Valakians side is no less immoral than taking the Menk's side, IMHO.
__________________
One Day I hope to be the Man my Cat thinks I am

Where are we going? And why are we in this Handbasket?
Sindatur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30 2012, 06:55 PM   #150
Edit_XYZ
Fleet Captain
 
Edit_XYZ's Avatar
 
Location: At star's end.
Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

Miss Lemon wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
And horatio83 claiming he's not supporting a 'moral relativism' position when he is blatantly supporting such a 'moral relativism' position (which is: morals don't apply to this group - ANY group - because 'it's not their way') IS a WTF claim, deserving of smileys.
I really wouldn't know, I stopped following this dicussion 3 pages ago when you chimed in and had your little buddy moment with BillJ.
So - you responded to me while having no idea about what I was discussing?
Yeah...
__________________
"Let truth and falsehood grapple ... Truth is strong" - John Milton
Edit_XYZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:25 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.