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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old June 2 2012, 03:24 AM   #76
naverhtrad
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Re: Does anyone else dislike Keiko O'brien?

exodus wrote:
She was behind bombing the school and brainwashed the young Bajorian Engineer into accepting the death penalty as the will of their god(s). What conscience?
The thing about DS9 is that there are very few black-and-white situations and even fewer black-and-white personalities, morally speaking. Gul Dukat was a brutal génocidaire, hubristic, power-hungry, a serial rapist and adulterer and - very nearly - a kinslayer, but - even as close as he came to being as pure evil as pure evil gets - he still could (at times) show genuine care for his family and his people.

Likewise, Winn Adami was a manipulative, cruel, remorseless seeker of power to the point of being (for all intents and purposes) a devil-worshipper... but Sisko could not have defeated Dukat without her help, however late the hour in which it was given. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying she's morally better than Nechaev or Dukat - indeed, in many ways, she is morally much worse. But her 'bitchiness' strikes me as being at a much less personal level; it's subsumed in her need to get ahead.

exodus wrote:
It's the military, she's an Admiral.
When does anyone in the military speak nicely to subordinates? People in the military are trained to be hard noses. When Sisko needed a job done from his subordinates, was he nice about it? No, he barked his orders and made his crew jump into action. There was a reason why the subordinates of the Enterprise were intimidated by Picard. Treks flaw at times is making the audience/fans forget that these people are soldiers and that orders and commands are rarely given nicely.
Being a hard ass is what earns you Admiral pips.
Or being a suck-up. But that's a whole 'nother discussion.

And there is a distinct difference between being a hard-nose (or -arse) and being a bitch. There's a reason I have respect for Sisko and not for Nechaev, and it is not (despite what you may believe) because of the show's perspective. I have no fault with Nechaev giving hard orders or giving them in a way which is not 'nice'. I do fault Nechaev for second-guessing her field officers' judgement in implementing her orders at practically every conceivable step, particularly given her poor assessment of their characters and of the situation 'on the ground' at certain points, just to make it clear that she gets to do so.

Sisko knows his officers (or at least tries to) well enough to let them do what they need to do, even if his orders are hard and not 'nicely' given. He gives Chief O'Brien several very difficult assignments (and no, you don't get to hear any more about them than what I tell you, and you damn well better like it), but knows the Chief's competencies well enough to let him do his job.

Anyway, this discussion is getting off-track enough as it is.

Back to Keiko, anyone?
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Old June 2 2012, 03:31 AM   #77
Rķu rķu, chķu
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Re: Does anyone else dislike Keiko O'brien?

naverhtrad wrote: View Post
EDIT: And no one - I repeat, no one - can possibly out-bitch Vice Admiral Nechaev
Ain't that the truth.
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Old June 3 2012, 01:26 AM   #78
St. William Of Levittown
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Re: Does anyone else dislike Keiko O'brien?

Even Nechayev had her moments. After Picard treated her to tea-time, and the admiral gets up to leave...she gives him a sad smile, and meakly says, "Thank you...for making me feel welcome."

It's a nice moment of vulnerability and humanity for an otherwise unlikable character.
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Old June 3 2012, 02:24 AM   #79
Rķu rķu, chķu
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Re: Does anyone else dislike Keiko O'brien?

I'd sure like to make Nechayev feel welcome...
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Old June 3 2012, 03:13 AM   #80
exodus
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Re: Does anyone else dislike Keiko O'brien?

naverhtrad wrote: View Post
exodus wrote:
She was behind bombing the school and brainwashed the young Bajorian Engineer into accepting the death penalty as the will of their god(s). What conscience?
The thing about DS9 is that there are very few black-and-white situations and even fewer black-and-white personalities, morally speaking. Gul Dukat was a brutal génocidaire, hubristic, power-hungry, a serial rapist and adulterer and - very nearly - a kinslayer, but - even as close as he came to being as pure evil as pure evil gets - he still could (at times) show genuine care for his family and his people.

Likewise, Winn Adami was a manipulative, cruel, remorseless seeker of power to the point of being (for all intents and purposes) a devil-worshipper... but Sisko could not have defeated Dukat without her help, however late the hour in which it was given. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying she's morally better than Nechaev or Dukat - indeed, in many ways, she is morally much worse. But her 'bitchiness' strikes me as being at a much less personal level; it's subsumed in her need to get ahead.

exodus wrote:
It's the military, she's an Admiral.
When does anyone in the military speak nicely to subordinates? People in the military are trained to be hard noses. When Sisko needed a job done from his subordinates, was he nice about it? No, he barked his orders and made his crew jump into action. There was a reason why the subordinates of the Enterprise were intimidated by Picard. Treks flaw at times is making the audience/fans forget that these people are soldiers and that orders and commands are rarely given nicely.
Being a hard ass is what earns you Admiral pips.
Or being a suck-up. But that's a whole 'nother discussion.

And there is a distinct difference between being a hard-nose (or -arse) and being a bitch. There's a reason I have respect for Sisko and not for Nechaev, and it is not (despite what you may believe) because of the show's perspective. I have no fault with Nechaev giving hard orders or giving them in a way which is not 'nice'. I do fault Nechaev for second-guessing her field officers' judgement in implementing her orders at practically every conceivable step, particularly given her poor assessment of their characters and of the situation 'on the ground' at certain points, just to make it clear that she gets to do so.

Sisko knows his officers (or at least tries to) well enough to let them do what they need to do, even if his orders are hard and not 'nicely' given. He gives Chief O'Brien several very difficult assignments (and no, you don't get to hear any more about them than what I tell you, and you damn well better like it), but knows the Chief's competencies well enough to let him do his job.

Anyway, this discussion is getting off-track enough as it is.

Back to Keiko, anyone?
There are bitches and assholes in all walks of life, why should Trek be any different?
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Old July 2 2012, 10:33 PM   #81
Kira Nerys
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Re: Does anyone else dislike Keiko O'brien?

Out of all the characters in DS9,I couldn't stand Keiko .She wasn't believeable as being Obrein's wife and all she did complain ,complain.
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Old July 2 2012, 11:32 PM   #82
ILOVETREK1701
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Re: Does anyone else dislike Keiko O'brien?

I liked keiko on tng but not so much on ds9.
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Old July 3 2012, 06:12 AM   #83
St. William Of Levittown
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Re: Does anyone else dislike Keiko O'brien?

^Yeah, she had quite a few nice moments in TNG--my favorites being her "labor" sequences in "Disaster", where she is decidedly NOT amused by poor Worf's awkward handling of the situation....
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Old July 4 2012, 02:57 PM   #84
Camren
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Re: Does anyone else dislike Keiko O'brien?

Horrible woman, the Chief deserved better (but not hotter).

She was completely in her element when she was possessed by the Pahwraith and had Miles perform all manner of dodgy things across the station.
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Old July 4 2012, 03:26 PM   #85
flavaflav
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Re: Does anyone else dislike Keiko O'brien?

Keiko is the worst fucking character in the Star Trek universe. The bitch should have been killed off in the first TNG ep she appeared in
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Old July 4 2012, 04:57 PM   #86
DonIago
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Re: Does anyone else dislike Keiko O'brien?

Nice...
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Old July 4 2012, 05:29 PM   #87
R. Star
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Re: Does anyone else dislike Keiko O'brien?

Camren wrote: View Post
Horrible woman, the Chief deserved better (but not hotter).

She was completely in her element when she was possessed by the Pahwraith and had Miles perform all manner of dodgy things across the station.
Heh, the thing about that episode that amused me the most was O'brien grinning when she said she wasn't Keiko, like he was gonna get in some roleplay foreplay!
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Old July 5 2012, 11:03 PM   #88
TrixieVanSickle
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Re: Does anyone else dislike Keiko O'brien?

Keiko was haughty and selfish. I think she worked as a character on TNG but on DS9 she was a pain in the ass. She seemed to not realize that by marrying a Starfleet officer, you married Starfleet, good or bad, for better or worse. Not realizing that Starfleet didn't always include the plush accommodations of the Enterprise D. She was naggy and unpleasant.

There was a reason O'Brien drank in Quark's as much as he did.
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Old July 5 2012, 11:43 PM   #89
DonIago
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Re: Does anyone else dislike Keiko O'brien?

If folks are going to attack the character it would be nice if they'd cite actual episodes instead of just making broad allegations.
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Old July 6 2012, 12:10 AM   #90
St. William Of Levittown
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Re: Does anyone else dislike Keiko O'brien?

We cited examples throughout--particularly on the first page. You...might want to check that out.

But I'll be generous, here, and give some materials to chew on:

As far back as "A Man Alone," we see Keiko whining about the station--and then storms off, saying, "I don't want to talk about this anymore!"

In "Hippocratic Oath," O'Brien notes how deffensive Keiko is getting over the workshop--spinning some poppycock about a "subconcious desire" to push her out of the quarters.

And then, "Fascination," when Keiko, again, gets way too defensive just because O'Brien's dissapointed about having to spend only one day with her before she goes out on another expedition.

In "Body Parts", she goes on a Gamma Quadeant expedition--when she's pregnant!--and O'Brien notes how she'd also wanted to go kayaking...as though the health and well-being of her baby didn't matter to her!

And, again...when Kira's in labor, and the O'Briens are doing the ritual--Keiko smacks Miles, for missing a beat! As I'd said in the beginning of this thread--had it been the other way around, there'd have been no question about how rotten Miles's behavior was towards his wife.

Need I go on?
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