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Old May 29 2012, 07:52 PM   #61
CoveTom
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Re: Does anyone else dislike Keiko O'brien?

Ezri D wrote: View Post
There are a number of fans that say the character of Ezri Dax was not that important. Even to say, they wished that Jadzia Dax was not replaced. Have to say, Keiko was less important then Ezri. Therefore, I do not have a problem with my comments.
There is no question that Keiko O'Brien was not as important a character to the show as, say, Jadzia Dax. However, the phrasing of your comment made it appear that you were saying that, in-universe, she was not important because she was "only" a wife and a mother, a vocation which I hope all are agreed is rather important. That was what I was clarifying.
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Old May 30 2012, 04:55 PM   #62
Ezri D
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Re: Does anyone else dislike Keiko O'brien?

CoveTom wrote: View Post
Ezri D wrote: View Post
There are a number of fans that say the character of Ezri Dax was not that important. Even to say, they wished that Jadzia Dax was not replaced. Have to say, Keiko was less important then Ezri. Therefore, I do not have a problem with my comments.
There is no question that Keiko O'Brien was not as important a character to the show as, say, Jadzia Dax. However, the phrasing of your comment made it appear that you were saying that, in-universe, she was not important because she was "only" a wife and a mother, a vocation which I hope all are agreed is rather important. That was what I was clarifying.
I do not have a problem with her being a wife and a mother. The problem I had with her, she was only on the show because she was only a wife and a mother. In my judgment, she was like a 19th century female character from a Victorian novel. Get married, have a child with your husband, and hope that it is a male child (DS9 it was a girl). I just felt she was cheated out of being herself.
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Old May 30 2012, 04:57 PM   #63
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Does anyone else dislike Keiko O'brien?

I think that if they'd wanted her in a more active role, they should've chosen a more screen-friendly profession instead of botany. In a book that would've worked fine, but not so much on screen. But personally, I was glad every time she was off-screen on Bajor.
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Old May 30 2012, 05:08 PM   #64
Ezri D
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Re: Does anyone else dislike Keiko O'brien?

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
I think that if they'd wanted her in a more active role, they should've chosen a more screen-friendly profession instead of botany. In a book that would've worked fine, but not so much on screen. But personally, I was glad every time she was off-screen on Bajor.
Botany is interesting. Still, when someone starts up a Star Trek role play society. I never had anyone wanted or was asked to be in botany. Have seen people wanted to run the bar, but nothing to do with botany.
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Old May 30 2012, 05:15 PM   #65
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Does anyone else dislike Keiko O'brien?

It's interesting, but not in a way that's easy to portray on-screen. "Wife" and "mother" are much more easily conveyed in a way that (under normal circumstances) holds the viewer's attention, so it's no wonder Keiko is most often seen in those roles.
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Old May 30 2012, 05:22 PM   #66
Ezri D
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Re: Does anyone else dislike Keiko O'brien?

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
It's interesting, but not in a way that's easy to portray on-screen. "Wife" and "mother" are much more easily conveyed in a way that (under normal circumstances) holds the viewer's attention, so it's no wonder Keiko is most often seen in those roles.
True, but she could have been in Starfleet. Her husband when he first started out was a Lieutenant and then ended up as a non-officer. To be fair, Star Trek is about the officers, not someone that is just the cook.
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Old May 30 2012, 08:13 PM   #67
Ln X
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Re: Does anyone else dislike Keiko O'brien?

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
It's interesting, but not in a way that's easy to portray on-screen. "Wife" and "mother" are much more easily conveyed in a way that (under normal circumstances) holds the viewer's attention, so it's no wonder Keiko is most often seen in those roles.
Your absolutely right; the real issue with Keiko O'Brien was that she was there to compliment O'Brien and her role was pretty fixed: mother, wife, botanist, Kai Winn basher...

Ezri D wrote: View Post
[In my judgment, she was like a 19th century female character from a Victorian novel. Get married, have a child with your husband, and hope that it is a male child (DS9 it was a girl). I just felt she was cheated out of being herself.
Nothing wrong with that. I thought Keiko was rather independently minded; she had her own aspirations but she enjoyed being a mother and being married. Not everyone is overly ambitious or wants to be really famous, they're content with a normal life but one that satisfies them. I thought Keiko managed to achieve towards the end of DS9...
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Old May 30 2012, 08:41 PM   #68
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Re: Does anyone else dislike Keiko O'brien?

Didn't like her. O'Brien worked long, spent too much time with Bashir and was perhaps not home often enough but he was never mean.
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Old May 31 2012, 12:08 AM   #69
exodus
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Re: Does anyone else dislike Keiko O'brien?

Ezri D wrote: View Post
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
It's interesting, but not in a way that's easy to portray on-screen. "Wife" and "mother" are much more easily conveyed in a way that (under normal circumstances) holds the viewer's attention, so it's no wonder Keiko is most often seen in those roles.
True, but she could have been in Starfleet. Her husband when he first started out was a Lieutenant and then ended up as a non-officer. To be fair, Star Trek is about the officers, not someone that is just the cook.
Too be fair, the cook, the bartenders, the tailor and the child prodigy had more interesting and colorful lives than the officers did.
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Old May 31 2012, 12:26 AM   #70
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Re: Does anyone else dislike Keiko O'brien?

She was better than either Dax.
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Old May 31 2012, 03:08 PM   #71
Ezri D
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Re: Does anyone else dislike Keiko O'brien?

exodus wrote: View Post
Too be fair, the cook, the bartenders, the tailor and the child prodigy had more interesting and colorful lives than the officers did.
Interesting!

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Old June 1 2012, 07:26 PM   #72
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Re: Does anyone else dislike Keiko O'brien?

Colour me another one completely mystified by the Keiko-hate. Even more so when she's painted as worse than Kai-m-f-in' Winn (who ordered an assassination attempt against Bareil Antos). Yeah, Keiko was more than a trifle sanctimonious in 'ItHotP', but, to her credit, she never tried to put out a hit on anybody... And regarding mean commentary about cooking, are the Keiko-haters conveniently forgetting that 'I'm not a fish' O'Brien comment during 'The Wounded' for some reason?

Speaking of her relationship with the Chief, I get the feeling she was probably a tsundere, and that has a certain appeal to some men (including myself, in the interests of full disclosure). And yeah, it was clear she hated the Bajor posting. But when push really came to shove, she proved herself incredibly loyal and supportive to O'Brien: 'Armageddon Game', as mentioned before, but also 'Tribunal' and 'Time's Orphan'.

Neither of the characters is perfect. But that was the point of DS9, to a pretty significant extent.

EDIT: And no one - I repeat, no one - can possibly out-bitch Vice Admiral Nechaev (though, I admit, the Female Changeling and Kai Winn do give her a run for her money). The way she treats Picard and Sisko is borderline unprofessional, and her 'you will commit genocide on my order' attitude is just begging for a good fragging... for the greater good of the Federation, natch.
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Old June 1 2012, 08:27 PM   #73
Ln X
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Re: Does anyone else dislike Keiko O'brien?

naverhtrad wrote: View Post
And regarding mean commentary about cooking, are the Keiko-haters conveniently forgetting that 'I'm not a fish' O'Brien comment during 'The Wounded' for some reason?
Yeah O'Brien said some pretty ugly things as well, and could bitch about things just as much as Keiko.

naverhtrad wrote: View Post
EDIT: And no one - I repeat, no one - can possibly out-bitch Vice Admiral Nechaev (though, I admit, the Female Changeling and Kai Winn do give her a run for her money). The way she treats Picard and Sisko is borderline unprofessional, and her 'you will commit genocide on my order' attitude is just begging for a good fragging... for the greater good of the Federation, natch.
I wouldn't say the Female Changeling is a real bitch because she was so cold and uncaring towards solids (she was more fricking brutal and ruthless when things didn't go her way). At least you knew her position and she made no attempt to hide it. She was probably at her most vindictive when casting judgement on Odo and saying those snide things after Odo had been transformed into a solid.

Nechaev is the second most bitchiest woman character on Star Trek. She has that annoying superior air about her and a nasty mean streak. But she wasn't exactly evil unlike the female changeling or Winn.

But Winn is the nastiest bitch of them all. She is constantly manipulative, lying, deceitful to others (and herself), delusional and plain wicked at times. Winn is the only character I know of where I few like strangling her in virtually every scene. I think Winn mellowed a bit in season 5 of DS9, but in other seasons she was all of those things above (though in varying quantities). Plus Winn is a religious nut so add some more points to her bitchiness.
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Old June 1 2012, 08:57 PM   #74
naverhtrad
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Re: Does anyone else dislike Keiko O'brien?

Ln X wrote:
I wouldn't say the Female Changeling is a real bitch because she was so cold and uncaring towards solids (she was more fricking brutal and ruthless when things didn't go her way). At least you knew her position and she made no attempt to hide it. She was probably at her most vindictive when casting judgement on Odo and saying those snide things after Odo had been transformed into a solid.
Point taken. She may have been more a statement on what Odo might have been without Kira's (and the other solids') influence on him.

Ln X wrote: View Post
Nechaev is the second most bitchiest woman character on Star Trek. She has that annoying superior air about her and a nasty mean streak. But she wasn't exactly evil unlike the female changeling or Winn.

But Winn is the nastiest bitch of them all. She is constantly manipulative, lying, deceitful to others (and herself), delusional and plain wicked at times. Winn is the only character I know of where I few like strangling her in virtually every scene. I think Winn mellowed a bit in season 5 of DS9, but in other seasons she was all of those things above (though in varying quantities). Plus Winn is a religious nut so add some more points to her bitchiness.
Huh. What you're saying is true, but Winn strikes me as less holistically bitchy for some reason. Her bitchiness at least has a reason to it, namely pure self-interest and political advancement. And she did try to destroy the book of the Kosst Amojan at the end, so that would indicate that she wasn't entirely without a conscience...

On the other hand, it seems to me that Nechaev just seems to walk all over her subordinates and acts like a complete pain in the ass just because she can. It's not that much of a distinction, I know; maybe it's just my perception.
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Old June 2 2012, 02:17 AM   #75
exodus
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Re: Does anyone else dislike Keiko O'brien?

naverhtrad wrote: View Post
Huh. What you're saying is true, but Winn strikes me as less holistically bitchy for some reason. Her bitchiness at least has a reason to it, namely pure self-interest and political advancement. And she did try to destroy the book of the Kosst Amojan at the end, so that would indicate that she wasn't entirely without a conscience...
She was behind bombing the school and brainwashed the young Bajorian Engineer into accepting the death penalty as the will of their god(s). What conscience?

On the other hand, it seems to me that Nechaev just seems to walk all over her subordinates and acts like a complete pain in the ass just because she can. It's not that much of a distinction, I know; maybe it's just my perception.
It's the military, she's an Admiral.
When does anyone in the military speak nicely to subordinates? People in the military are trained to be hard noses. When Sisko needed a job done from his subordinates, was he nice about it? No, he barked his orders and made his crew jump into action. There was a reason why the subordinates of the Enterprise were intimidated by Picard. Treks flaw at times is making the audience/fans forget that these people are soldiers and that orders and commands are rarely given nicely.
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Last edited by exodus; June 2 2012 at 02:31 AM.
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