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Old June 30 2012, 04:51 PM   #136
aridas sofia
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

My brain farts.

But that can be a good thing.
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Old July 1 2012, 02:16 PM   #137
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

If the TOS designers had had any inkling that we fans would be scrutinizing decals applied to a model kit 45 years after the fact, and if they had had any foreknowledge of Internet-era lingo, then I suspect Constellation's registry number would have been made from two decal sets, with 7s inverted, resulting in a number of NCC-L0L.

(I'm poking as much fun at myself as I am at other fans, and I'm targeting we fans collectively, not any individuals.)
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Old July 2 2012, 03:25 AM   #138
aridas sofia
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

Hey, I only post about once a year here nowadays. I can afford to save up all my ginormous brainpower for one big one. Sort of like a python eating a cow. Only in reverse.
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Old July 2 2012, 11:32 AM   #139
FalTorPan
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017



I wasn't criticizing you in any way. Sometimes I just step back and am amazed at how much we -- absolutely including me -- continue to obsess over this stuff.
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Old July 2 2012, 04:28 PM   #140
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

I don't obsess.

I LIVE it!!

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Old July 2 2012, 08:14 PM   #141
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

In any case Jefferies is laughing his arse off upstairs...
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Old July 2 2012, 11:53 PM   #142
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

FalTorPan wrote: View Post
If the TOS designers had had any inkling that we fans would be scrutinizing decals applied to a model kit 45 years after the fact, and if they had had any foreknowledge of Internet-era lingo, then I suspect Constellation's registry number would have been made from two decal sets, with 7s inverted, resulting in a number of NCC-L0L.
Or they might have not shown the registry number at all, just having that section of the ship be one of the parts blown off by the planet killer.
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Old September 22 2013, 08:52 AM   #143
CharlieZardoz
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

I think the answer to this question is that either A. The Constitution was not 1700 (as there is no evidence onscreen stating it was maybe 900 or 1000) or B. that the Constitution was 1700 and that each series had its own class name which was never disclosed 1000,1300,1600 etc as Jefferies and Jein seem to indicate in their commentaries making Enterprise series IX DSC. Remember back in the days of the old series there was no thought given to different starship classes looking different from one another. Class could have denoted service specifications. Even the Daedalus did not exist as an idea until TNG times (the model was based on a rejected idea for the enterprise right?). My only issue with this is that old sources claim only like 12/13 connies in existence and I'm sure they were talking about Potempkin, Constellation, Intrepid, etc. with registries lower than Constitution and not some 12 other ships. The third possible option is that Constellation and older ships had been refitted to look like Constitution class starships some time before the original series takes place.

To be honest of the 3 choices I tend to support the simpler explanation that Jein was wrong and that they are all Constitution class ships and that the original connies could have started somewhere in the 900's with the series constantly evolving what the Enterprise actually was as episodes aired. It's been a while was it ever said explicitly in the series how many connies there were? If so that doesn't mean that's as many as there ever were obviously

Last edited by CharlieZardoz; September 22 2013 at 09:28 AM.
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Old September 23 2013, 09:15 AM   #144
Robert Comsol
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

CharlieZardoz wrote: View Post
Jefferies and Jein seem to indicate in their commentaries making Enterprise series IX DSC.
I think you are mistaking (Franz) Joseph for (Matt) Jefferies. Joseph and Jein obviously interpreted the "Mark IX/01" annotation in the primary phaser schematic (both Khan and Scotty were looking at) not to refer to the type of primary phaser but to the kind of starship it belonged to although the other annotation made it abundantly clear that this phaser belonged to a "starship" of a "Constitution Class".

CharlieZardoz wrote: View Post
Even the Daedalus did not exist as an idea until TNG times (the model was based on a rejected idea for the enterprise right?).
That is both correct.

CharlieZardoz wrote: View Post
It's been a while was it ever said explicitly in the series how many connies there were? If so that doesn't mean that's as many as there ever were obviously
In "Tomorrow Is Yesterday" Kirk told Captain Christopher that there were "only 12 like it [the Enterprise].
Dorothy Fontana interpreted that line as ultimate when suggesting to come up with names, but "continuity guru" Bob Justman replied that she was suggesting to come up for the 12 ships of the "Enterprise Starship Class". Obviously neither him and Roddenberry objected ("there are more than 12"), thus it's 12 Enterprise Class starships at the time of TY.

Further reading of The Making of Star Trek suggests that the Producers, indeed, only envisioned 12 Enterprise Class starships and that's were Greg Jein got the idea for his treatise from.

Of course, he never considered the possibility that there might be 12 Enterprise Class starships and an unkown number of Constitution Class starships. Instead he made them all "Constitution Class" and that's where the headaches began.

Bob
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Last edited by Robert Comsol; September 23 2013 at 03:23 PM. Reason: Shame on me, forget to put Bob Justman's name there
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Old September 23 2013, 03:17 PM   #145
CharlieZardoz
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

Cool thanks for the insight! The joy (and possible frustration) of Star Trek lore was that not everything was explained thus giving that mythos where you want to fill in the blanks with conjecture. Problem is it seems even those working within Trek tried to do this and some cases didn't have the answers themselves or made matters worse by adding contradictions. So yeah it does seem likely that while only 12 ships "like the Enterprise" exist, there were likely many more ships which looked just like her and we will never really know the answer as to when the design first started and how many were ever truly built. That's quite fine by me though I'm happy to conclude that the original USS Constitution may have had a registry as far back as the 900's and that ships of this design might have been churning out for decades. It would go a long way to explain why by the 24th century it had been phased out while the Miranda kept going as that design was still new in the 2280's.

BTW I'd love to find further reading on this if possible as I'm sure I can't be the first person to come to these conclusions.
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Old September 23 2013, 05:20 PM   #146
Robert Comsol
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

CharlieZardoz wrote: View Post
That's quite fine by me though I'm happy to conclude that the original USS Constitution may have had a registry as far back as the 900's and that ships of this design might have been churning out for decades. It would go a long way to explain why by the 24th century it had been phased out while the Miranda kept going as that design was still new in the 2280's.
Well, if you want to interpret the primary phaser schematic as belonging to a Mark IX/01 starship (i.e. NCC-901) you'd be doing much, much better than Greg Jein who interpreted IX/01 as the Enterprise. (wouldn't that be XVII/01 ?).

And you could use the Operation Retrieve chart from ST VI referring to NCC-956 (USS Eagle, Constitution Starship II Class silhouette).

Of course, according to Matt Jefferies, the TOS Enterprise was the first bird of the 17th starship design series, but what makes these design differences (exterior and/or interior) is completely up to our interpretation.

CharlieZardoz wrote: View Post
BTW I'd love to find further reading on this if possible as I'm sure I can't be the first person to come to these conclusions.
I think we already presented the available facts in various threads, there is not that much more, I'm afraid.

According to my general life experience never assume that somebody has come up with this or that conclusion before. For example I'm not aware that some of my "radical" conclusions have been discussed before (e.g. deck numbering distinction between main decks and engineering decks of the TOS Enterprise).

Bob
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Old October 10 2013, 12:41 AM   #147
Lieut. Arex
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

isn't it time for someone to break out the ouji board and get the answer?
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Old October 10 2013, 01:21 AM   #148
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

I don't know why people keep thinking the Eagle is Constitution class just because of the Operation Retrieve chart. The silhouette of a Connie was just used as a generic icon for any starship. The real ship doesn't have to be of that class.
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Old October 10 2013, 10:09 AM   #149
Robert Comsol
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

^^ Yes, you are right. The Excelsior has the same unmistakable shape as the Enterprise-A on the Operation Retrieve chart, therefore it stands to reason that any Federation ship would have that kind of generic icon.

Bob
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Old October 10 2013, 11:17 AM   #150
CharlieZardoz
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
I don't know why people keep thinking the Eagle is Constitution class just because of the Operation Retrieve chart. The silhouette of a Connie was just used as a generic icon for any starship. The real ship doesn't have to be of that class.
I think it's because the Eagle was originally considered a Constitution class starship based on Greg Jein's starship list way back when (associated with registry 1685 on that list). I'm pretty sure those who made the operation retrieve chart weren't thinking "hey that ship is supposed to be a connie with a registry of xxxx" so they gave it a low number and yes it could technically be any ship type since we never saw it onscreen and Greg's list is not canon. However since the Eagle has been associated with the connie type and 956 isn't too far from 1017 (Constellation) which is obviously a connie (yes I know why they did that) all the evidence suggests the Constitution class starship line began pretty early in the registries 900/800/700 even? That suits me fine though as it means the first Connie's would have been built in the early 23rd century or even late 22nd century rather than the 2240's and also why by the 24th century they were considered obsolete and phased out while the Miranda class (1800+) was still serviceable.

Also I don't believe that many other ship designs existed in the original trek series era since when it came out the only real "starship" design the creators envisioned looked just like the Enterprise. It was only in later years that the show creators added earlier ship designs like Daedalus, Oberth, Antares and NX Enterprise. So for me really any ship from ncc 700-1800 (when the Miranda line began) could most likely be a connie and while no I have no evidence it just feels right
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