Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix - Page 4

exodus · May 19 2012, 10:13 PM

MacLeod wrote:

exodus wrote:

MacLeod wrote:

Unfortunantly from a legal point of view she had no right to decide as she was emotional invested in the outcome. She should have recused herself until such time starfleet could be contacted so an impartial judge could decide.

After all the argument seems to be Tuvix had no rights, so what's the problem if he had to wait an indefinate time until someone impartial had ruled on the matter.

Tuvix had the same right to life as Tuvok and Neelix.

Didn't Tuvix agree that if a cure was found he would willingly under go it to bring back Neelix and Tuvok? So isn't he willingly forfeiting his right to life?

If Tuvix was willing to do it, why did we need a hearing?

...because he reneged on his promise, which also should have been in writing to make it legal and binding.......... but this is the Federation/Starfleet. Where people take people on their word. Remember how shocked everyone was when Tuvix said "no"? It's why I believe nobody step up to save him when he protested. They were all aware of the agreement he made and that his life was never promised, no matter how much they grew attached to him. They all knew that "death" was always a possibility.
What I'm surprised at by the episode is that there was no inner conflict between the two personalities in him. I can't see Tuvok going back on a promise but I can see Neelix doing so out of fear.

MacLeod · May 19 2012, 11:35 PM

Wait so his crime was changing his mind.

Has anyone here not changed their mind at some point in their life?

exodus · May 20 2012, 12:12 AM

MacLeod wrote:

Wait so his crime was changing his mind.

Has anyone here not changed their mind at some point in their life?

Seriously?

Do we or do we not roast Janeway for changing her mind in some situations, such as not giving technology to the Kazon but giving it to the Hirogen? Tuvix can change his mind and not be seen as criminal but Janeway does it and she is? How many posters change their stance in a debate on this site and are criticized for it?

So yes, our online peers have already cast their vote that changing ones mind is a crime.

DonIago · May 20 2012, 01:40 AM

I never roasted Janeway for that. People are allowed to, as Obama would say, "evolve their views".

exodus · May 20 2012, 02:37 AM

DonIago wrote:

I never roasted Janeway for that. People are allowed to, as Obama would say, "evolve their views".

Come on now, I said "our peers" and Obama isn't a member nor is that way of thinking adapted to this board.

DonIago · May 20 2012, 03:26 AM

You mean open-mindedness?

MacLeod · May 20 2012, 11:10 AM

exodus wrote:

MacLeod wrote:

Wait so his crime was changing his mind.

Has anyone here not changed their mind at some point in their life?

Seriously?

Do we or do we not roast Janeway for changing her mind in some situations, such as not giving technology to the Kazon but giving it to the Hirogen? Tuvix can change his mind and not be seen as criminal but Janeway does it and she is? How many posters change their stance in a debate on this site and are criticized for it?

So yes, our online peers have already cast their vote that changing ones mind is a crime.

You're not seriously trying to argue that changing your mind and deciding to live is the same as Janeway saying "Ok, I'll give you some of our technology" are you?

It doesn't matter how the being Tuvix came to be, he was a unique lifeform. Janeway's ruling was basically to murder him. He commited no crime to speak off, he had no saying in how he was created. Last I chceked there was only one offense that warrented the death sentance in the Federation, visiting Talos IV.

We generally don't punish people for things beyond their control.

sonak · May 20 2012, 02:41 PM

MacLeod wrote:

exodus wrote:

MacLeod wrote:

Wait so his crime was changing his mind.

Has anyone here not changed their mind at some point in their life?

Seriously?

Do we or do we not roast Janeway for changing her mind in some situations, such as not giving technology to the Kazon but giving it to the Hirogen? Tuvix can change his mind and not be seen as criminal but Janeway does it and she is? How many posters change their stance in a debate on this site and are criticized for it?

So yes, our online peers have already cast their vote that changing ones mind is a crime.

You're not seriously trying to argue that changing your mind and deciding to live is the same as Janeway saying "Ok, I'll give you some of our technology" are you?

It doesn't matter how the being Tuvix came to be, he was a unique lifeform. Janeway's ruling was basically to murder him. He commited no crime to speak off, he had no saying in how he was created. Last I chceked there was only one offense that warrented the death sentance in the Federation, visiting Talos IV.

We generally don't punish people for things beyond their control.

you're simplifying a complex issue. Tuvix was basically denying Tuvok and Neelix's rights to life.(again unintentionally)

It's an outlandish sci-fi premise that wouldn't happen, but in the context of the show, I'm of the opinion that there was no "right" answer in that situation. Either decision would be a bad one. Not doing the procedure meant consenting to the deaths of Tuvok and Neelix, both of whom have a right to life that was taken from them in that instance. On the other hand, doing the procedure meant denying Tuvix his rights as a sentient being, so whichever way the decision went, it was going to be ugly.

MacLeod · May 20 2012, 04:17 PM

Yes but in the case of Tuvok's and Neelix's life, there lifes could have been considered lost in a transporter accident. Whilst the procedure to bring them back invovled the murder of another lifeform. There is a difference between a life being lost in an accident and taking a life.

But as you say you basically have two choices, bad allow Tuvix to live and consider Tuvok and Neelix as being killed in a transporter accident and worse murder another being to bring them back.

sonak · May 20 2012, 05:45 PM

MacLeod wrote:

Yes but in the case of Tuvok's and Neelix's life, there lifes could have been considered lost in a transporter accident. Whilst the procedure to bring them back invovled the murder of another lifeform. There is a difference between a life being lost in an accident and taking a life.

But as you say you basically have two choices, bad allow Tuvix to live and consider Tuvok and Neelix as being killed in a transporter accident and worse murder another being to bring them back.

your premise rests on Tuvok and Neelix being considered dead during that time. If you change their status to "missing," does that change your views?

MacLeod · May 20 2012, 06:19 PM

No it doesn't, the issue is did Janeway have the right to murder Tuvix by forcing him to undergo something against his will.

Did Tuvix have the same rights as any other Federation Citizen?
If not what rights does he have?
If he does not have the same rights as other Federation Citizens, Why is he not afforded them?

sonak · May 20 2012, 07:51 PM

MacLeod wrote:

No it doesn't, the issue is did Janeway have the right to murder Tuvix by forcing him to undergo something against his will.

Did Tuvix have the same rights as any other Federation Citizen?
If not what rights does he have?
If he does not have the same rights as other Federation Citizens, Why is he not afforded them?

Why are Tuvok and Neelix's rights not part of the picture to you?

Tuvix is kind of an accidental body-snatcher/organ-harvester here.

MacLeod · May 20 2012, 08:25 PM

Why aren't Tuvix's rights part of the picture to you?

I believe I have already said previously, Tuvix has the same rights as Tuvok and Neelix.

Is the argument that is it ok to murder 1 person to bring back 2? If so where is the line drawn, is it alright to murder 1million to if that'll bring back 1 million and 2? Where is the line drawn?

Are the two sides of the arguments :-

1.>Tuvix was entitled to the same rights to life as due all Federation Citizens.

2.>Tuvix was NOT entitled to the same rights to life as due all Federation Citizens.

The fact that Tuvix was created in a transporter accident at the expense of Neelix and Tuvok should not come into it. Because it was an accident. How can Tuvix be held responsible for how he came to be?

sonak · May 20 2012, 09:34 PM

MacLeod wrote:

Why aren't Tuvix's rights part of the picture to you?

I believe I have already said previously, Tuvix has the same rights as Tuvok and Neelix.

Is the argument that is it ok to murder 1 person to bring back 2? If so where is the line drawn, is it alright to murder 1million to if that'll bring back 1 million and 2? Where is the line drawn?

Are the two sides of the arguments :-

1.>Tuvix was entitled to the same rights to life as due all Federation Citizens.

2.>Tuvix was NOT entitled to the same rights to life as due all Federation Citizens.

The fact that Tuvix was created in a transporter accident at the expense of Neelix and Tuvok should not come into it. Because it was an accident. How can Tuvix be held responsible for how he came to be?

it's not as simple as "murdering" Tuvix to bring back two. Tuvix is living at the expense of Tuvok and Neelix. Whether it's accidental or not doesn't change that. It doesn't matter what the status of those two was after the accident, they can be restored through the procedure. As I wrote, there's no right decision here in my view.

MacLeod · May 20 2012, 09:58 PM

But in order to bring back those two you have to murder Tuvix. By letting Tuvix live, you consider them as being lost in a transporter accident.

Which is the lesser of two evils?

1.>To consider Tuvok and Neelix lost in a transporter accident and let Tuvix live.
2.>To murder Tuvix in order to restore Neelix and Tuvok.

May 19 2012, 11:35 PM	#47
MacLeod Vice Admiral Location: Great Britain	Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix Wait so his crime was changing his mind. Has anyone here not changed their mind at some point in their life? __________________ On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.

May 20 2012, 01:40 AM	#49
DonIago Rear Admiral Location: Burlington, VT, USA	Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix I never roasted Janeway for that. People are allowed to, as Obama would say, "evolve their views". __________________ --DonIago It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek... "If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"

May 20 2012, 03:26 AM	#51
DonIago Rear Admiral Location: Burlington, VT, USA	Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix You mean open-mindedness? __________________ --DonIago It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek... "If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"

May 20 2012, 04:17 PM	#54
MacLeod Vice Admiral Location: Great Britain	Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix Yes but in the case of Tuvok's and Neelix's life, there lifes could have been considered lost in a transporter accident. Whilst the procedure to bring them back invovled the murder of another lifeform. There is a difference between a life being lost in an accident and taking a life. But as you say you basically have two choices, bad allow Tuvix to live and consider Tuvok and Neelix as being killed in a transporter accident and worse murder another being to bring them back. __________________ On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.

May 20 2012, 06:19 PM	#56
MacLeod Vice Admiral Location: Great Britain	Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix No it doesn't, the issue is did Janeway have the right to murder Tuvix by forcing him to undergo something against his will. Did Tuvix have the same rights as any other Federation Citizen? If not what rights does he have? If he does not have the same rights as other Federation Citizens, Why is he not afforded them? __________________ On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.

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May 20 2012, 08:25 PM	#58
MacLeod Vice Admiral Location: Great Britain	Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix Why aren't Tuvix's rights part of the picture to you? I believe I have already said previously, Tuvix has the same rights as Tuvok and Neelix. Is the argument that is it ok to murder 1 person to bring back 2? If so where is the line drawn, is it alright to murder 1million to if that'll bring back 1 million and 2? Where is the line drawn? Are the two sides of the arguments :- 1.>Tuvix was entitled to the same rights to life as due all Federation Citizens. 2.>Tuvix was NOT entitled to the same rights to life as due all Federation Citizens. The fact that Tuvix was created in a transporter accident at the expense of Neelix and Tuvok should not come into it. Because it was an accident. How can Tuvix be held responsible for how he came to be? __________________ On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.

May 20 2012, 09:58 PM	#60
MacLeod Vice Admiral Location: Great Britain	Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix But in order to bring back those two you have to murder Tuvix. By letting Tuvix live, you consider them as being lost in a transporter accident. Which is the lesser of two evils? 1.>To consider Tuvok and Neelix lost in a transporter accident and let Tuvix live. 2.>To murder Tuvix in order to restore Neelix and Tuvok. __________________ On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.