RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,561
Posts: 5,423,152
Members: 24,809
Currently online: 499
Newest member: Dobian

TrekToday headlines

Star Trek: Alien Domain Game Announced
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Red Shirt Diaries Episode Three
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Made Out Of Mudd Photonovel
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Takei Has Growth Removed
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Retro Review: Tears of the Prophets
By: Michelle on Sep 12

New Wizkids Attack Wing Ships
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Coto Drama Sold To Fox
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Braga Inks Deal
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Remastered Original Series Re-release
By: T'Bonz on Sep 11

UK Trek Ships Calendar Debuts
By: T'Bonz on Sep 10


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 19 2012, 09:11 PM   #31
Mutai Sho-Rin
Moderator
 
Mutai Sho-Rin's Avatar
 
Location: Orange, CA USA
Re: Turnabout Intruder, Feminism, and Command

JimZipCode wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
This ended up being double posted. If the second instance still has the "edit" button available you might consider deleting it.
Ouch, I'm sorry. Bad enough a huge post that fills the screen; terrible to double-post it.

No, I don't see an "edit" or "delete" option for either one. Can we get an admin to help?
Done as requested.
__________________
Into the sands of blood comes the Sho-Rin, master of the Mutai. Babylon 5 - TKO
Mutai Sho-Rin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2012, 05:26 AM   #32
UnknownSample
Captain
 
Location: Earth's surface
Re: A thought about Turnabout Intruder

I think the problem is that everybody's right, which is usually the case when people stake out two opposite opinions on an issue, and years of debating doesn't resolve anything. No one can "win" because everybody's got a good point.
This episode is very frustrating. It has sexism lurking in it, but just when it's about to rip its mask off and declare itself openly, it goes the other way. So the moment you think you're going to go "Aha! Sexism!", the chance is snatched away from you... It's sexist. It's feminist. It's neutral. From moment to moment, the episode can be any or all of these things.
Roddenberry's feeling on women and work was that they should work alongside men as equals and competent professionals, but still "look like women", which for him then meant a sexy, revealing uniform. It's a strange attitude to plot on a sexism graph, if you had one. Women on a ship at all, let alone women officers, was weird for 1966. I think he had to fight a little for that one.
Maybe Gene's complicated, possibly unique attitude on women in relation to men is the cause of all our frustration with this story.
I think it can't really be denied that in the reality of Turnabout Intruder (and only in TI), women can't be captains. Lester wasn't a raving hallucinating maniac living in fantasy, or she couldn't have dealt with the scientific and other problems she did. It's a storytelling anomaly. Roddenberry began ST with a very non-sexist vision, and ended ST with... this. Maybe he wanted to comment on the unfairness of women not being able to advance in the present day, and since the show was shutting down, no one clarified the concept for him. Maybe a script editor wasn't available by that point.

Whatever it is, though, I can't consider TI a great episode. Like a lot of s3, it's a bad idea rescued from real out-and-out badness by a team of committed professionals.
__________________
"Nice melon..."-- The Constable
"I hate sci-fi... I love science-fiction."-- Me.
UnknownSample is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2012, 05:50 PM   #33
TIN_MAN
Fleet Captain
 
TIN_MAN's Avatar
 
Re: A thought about Turnabout Intruder

"Lester wasn't a raving hallucinating maniac living in fantasy, or she couldn't have dealt with the scientific and other problems she did. It's a storytelling anomaly."
Well, I agree with the second sentence, it’s a storytelling anomaly for sure. we must remember that, unlike most fans, the writers were (and still are) more concerned with what works for a given story at hand more than overall series continuity.

But I disagree with the first sentence, many a "raving hallucinating maniac living in fantasy" has been able to handle "scientific and other problems" quite well, there's a fine line between genius and insanity, one does not necessarily preclude the other.

But your overall point is well taken, this episode (in particular) is definitely a Rorschach test of sorts.
TIN_MAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2012, 05:53 PM   #34
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: A thought about Turnabout Intruder

UnknownSample wrote: View Post
I think it can't really be denied that in the reality of Turnabout Intruder (and only in TI), women can't be captains.
Really? It can easily be denied. If anything it was the character of Number One that was the exception, generally during TOS women were not to be in "positions of power."

Only in 'Cage did we see a woman in a high command position, just one heart beat away from the captaincy of a ship. Star Trek did show a moderate number of competent female crewmembers, but safely in the ensign and lieutenant portion of the command structure.

http://allyourtrekarebelongto.us/toswomen.htm

T'Girl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2012, 10:56 PM   #35
UnknownSample
Captain
 
Location: Earth's surface
Re: A thought about Turnabout Intruder

T'Girl wrote: View Post
UnknownSample wrote: View Post
I think it can't really be denied that in the reality of Turnabout Intruder (and only in TI), women can't be captains.
Really? It can easily be denied. If anything it was the character of Number One that was the exception, generally during TOS women were not to be in "positions of power."

Only in 'Cage did we see a woman in a high command position, just one heart beat away from the captaincy of a ship. Star Trek did show a moderate number of competent female crewmembers, but safely in the ensign and lieutenant portion of the command structure.

http://allyourtrekarebelongto.us/toswomen.htm

Well, maybe. We didn't see much of the commanders of other ships, definitely not seconds-in-command, and there weren't openings for the top two positions on the Enterprise. The other captains were all men, but I doubt it'll ever be a 50-50 split between men and women. So what we're left with is an impression of a general intent, which from the very start seemed to be, "Look! Professional women officers and experts, all over the place!" Since it may never have been shown before on TV, this really stood out. So it seemed almost inconceivable that this show would have a "glass ceiling", though the phrase/idea wasn't around yet.

I go by the intent expressed more than by what we see onscreen, strictly speaking, because the network could be holding them back from showing all the progress they wanted to show, but that progress could still be there "offscreen"... maybe I just don't want to deal with a TI-like ST. But you may be right.

Tin Man: Thanks. Do we know that there's a fine line between genius and insanity? Really? Or is that just some thing we think we know, from seeing it pop up in TV plots over the years? I think geniuses and artists get a bad rap. Superior abilities can lead to resentment and accusations from others. Also, the mainstream can misinterpret inner struggle as madness.
__________________
"Nice melon..."-- The Constable
"I hate sci-fi... I love science-fiction."-- Me.
UnknownSample is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2012, 11:03 PM   #36
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: A thought about Turnabout Intruder

Well in the world of TV/Film a rich mad man is called eccentric, a poor mad man, well is a mad man.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 22 2012, 02:48 PM   #37
JimZipCode
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: A thought about Turnabout Intruder

UnknownSample wrote: View Post
I think the problem is that everybody's right, which is usually the case when people stake out two opposite opinions on an issue, and years of debating doesn't resolve anything. No one can "win" because everybody's got a good point.
This episode is very frustrating. It has sexism lurking in it, but just when it's about to rip its mask off and declare itself openly, it goes the other way. So the moment you think you're going to go "Aha! Sexism!", the chance is snatched away from you. It's sexist. It's feminist. It's neutral. From moment to moment, the episode can be any or all of these things.
...
Whatever it is, though, I can't consider TI a great episode. Like a lot of s3, it's a bad idea rescued from real out-and-out badness by a team of committed professionals.
Or a great idea not-completely-worked-out, or something like that. A lot of s3 is based on scripts that might have one decent idea in them, but they are not worked-out in a professional manner. A lot of first-time and amateur writers.

Great post. Your insight that the episode is all over the place, great and terrible, is spot on. There are parts of it I love, as I said above, esp the parts detailing the reactions of the officers and crew to impersonated Kirk. But, there certainly are flaws.

The discussion around this episode is usually so one-sided. I never see any acknowledgment that there is some great stuff in there. But there is. It would be much less controversial if there weren't.
JimZipCode is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 22 2012, 02:56 PM   #38
JimZipCode
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: A thought about Turnabout Intruder

UnknownSample wrote: View Post
I think it can't really be denied that in the reality of Turnabout Intruder (and only in TI), women can't be captains. Lester wasn't a raving hallucinating maniac living in fantasy, or she couldn't have dealt with the scientific and other problems she did.
I'm not sure I would say "only in TI" either. The only counter-example people give is the Number One character from The Cage. That's a pretty anomalous example. The Cage never even aired as an episode, only as its cut-up version The Menagerie.

Kirk seems to endorse Lester's view at the beginning. When she says it's not fair, he seems to agree, saying "No it isn't." I don't see why any fans would persist in arguing that Lester is wrong, there are plenty of openings for women starship captains, when Kirk himself seems to support her statement.
JimZipCode is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 22 2012, 04:58 PM   #39
Anwar
Vice Admiral
 
Anwar's Avatar
 
Location: Regina, SK, Canada
Re: A thought about Turnabout Intruder

And then we see the Captain of the Saratoga in ST IV.
Anwar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 22 2012, 05:08 PM   #40
Mr. Laser Beam
Fleet Admiral
 
Mr. Laser Beam's Avatar
 
Location: The visitor's bullpen
View Mr. Laser Beam's Twitter Profile
Re: A thought about Turnabout Intruder

^ Indeed. And I'm guessing that she has been the Captain for a number of years when that scene took place.

JimZipCode wrote: View Post
The Cage never even aired as an episode, only as its cut-up version The Menagerie.
Number One is the same character in both. Even if you don't accept "The Cage" as true, Number One also appears in "The Menagerie" and is still the XO. And if she can be the XO, then by definition, she can be the Captain as well (and actually is exactly that whenever Pike is off the ship).
__________________
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
Mr. Laser Beam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 22 2012, 05:23 PM   #41
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: A thought about Turnabout Intruder

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post

Number One is the same character in both. Even if you don't accept "The Cage" as true, Number One also appears in "The Menagerie" and is still the XO. And if she can be the XO, then by definition, she can be the Captain as well (and actually is exactly that whenever Pike is off the ship).
And she is the one giving the orders once Pike is captured in both The Cage and The Menagerie.
__________________
"I tell you what you all need, you need to take a thirteenth step, down off your high horse." - Hank Hill, King of the Hill
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 22 2012, 07:22 PM   #42
Octubre
Ensign
 
Re: A thought about Turnabout Intruder

T'Girl wrote:
Really? It can easily be denied. If anything it was the character of Number One that was the exception, generally during TOS women were not to be in "positions of power."
It's interesting we saw in TOS alien women in "positions of power" - T'Pau, Natira, Losira, Deela, Romulan Commander - but we barely see there human women. Not very great for humans and Starfleet...
Octubre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 22 2012, 09:51 PM   #43
TIN_MAN
Fleet Captain
 
TIN_MAN's Avatar
 
Re: A thought about Turnabout Intruder

UnknownSample wrote: View Post
Tin Man: Thanks. Do we know that there's a fine line between genius and insanity? Really? Or is that just some thing we think we know, from seeing it pop up in TV plots over the years? I think geniuses and artists get a bad rap. Superior abilities can lead to resentment and accusations from others. Also, the mainstream can misinterpret inner struggle as madness.
Well, when you've been around as long as I have you learn that most of what we “know” is really just what we think we know; there are precious few certainties in life.
Just speaking from my own experience though, I routinely teeter between genius and insanity, so for me it's defiantly a truism.
TIN_MAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 23 2012, 06:37 AM   #44
UnknownSample
Captain
 
Location: Earth's surface
Re: A thought about Turnabout Intruder

TIN_MAN wrote: View Post
UnknownSample wrote: View Post
Tin Man: Thanks. Do we know that there's a fine line between genius and insanity? Really? Or is that just some thing we think we know, from seeing it pop up in TV plots over the years? I think geniuses and artists get a bad rap. Superior abilities can lead to resentment and accusations from others. Also, the mainstream can misinterpret inner struggle as madness.
Well, when you've been around as long as I have you learn that most of what we “know” is really just what we think we know; there are precious few certainties in life.
Just speaking from my own experience though, I routinely teeter between genius and insanity, so for me it's defiantly a truism.
But, how would you know you're insane, if you're insane? And don't say, "Because I'm a genius!!"

A guiding principle in my life is "Everything you know is wrong". Because a huge chunk of it always is, especially the stuff "everybody knows".

Thank you, Mr. Zip Code.
__________________
"Nice melon..."-- The Constable
"I hate sci-fi... I love science-fiction."-- Me.
UnknownSample is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 23 2012, 08:31 AM   #45
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: A thought about Turnabout Intruder

UnknownSample wrote: View Post
But, how would you know you're insane, if you're insane?
The small hat constructed of tin foil is often an important clue.


T'Girl is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:05 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.