The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

[BillJ]

Santaman wrote:

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I think the Ent A was a prototype vessel, kinda like spaceshuttle Enterprise, they just had to fit the missing pieces to make it into a real operational starship, also might explain why its partially more modern and partially a step back from the TMP refit .

So your idea has it as a testbed vessel (the Ti-Ho) prior to be renaming Enterprise? I could buy into that.

[Captain Mike]

BillJ wrote:

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So your idea has it as a testbed vessel (the Ti-Ho) prior to be renaming Enterprise? I could buy into that.

Still doesn't explain why StarFleet would give such a ship to a proven commander of one. No matter if you have the best engineer or crew. I mean what would happen in a combat situation if the ship went into catastrophic failure because it was a "testbed" vehicle? BBOOOOMM, there goes your most competent Starship Captain...

[BillJ]

Captain Mike wrote:

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Still doesn't explain why StarFleet would give such a ship to a proven commander of one. No matter if you have the best engineer or crew. I mean what would happen in a combat situation if the ship went into catastrophic failure because it was a "testbed" vehicle? BBOOOOMM, there goes your most competent Starship Captain...

Probably because of two things: they probably don't have active starships floating around without command crews already in place and, like it or not, Jim Kirk and most of his senior staff were on the backside of their careers. Starfleet no longer saw them as front line warriors anymore.

The way The Undiscovered Country plays, it seems like they are already in semi-retirement. And who knows how long that's been the case?

[starburst]

That sounds similar to the Mr Scotts Guide where the name Ti-Ho came from. In the book the ship which was renamed Enterprise was a test bed for a Transwarp Drive system along side the Excelsior, the explanation being two competing companies were working on the project one of which was the manufacturer of the Constitution nacelles.

I can buy the idea that this could be a new ship built to test new technology in a proven space frame before being installed in newer classes, whether that include a Transwarp or a new Warp Drive system. That could attribute to some of the issues she had leading into STV.

[Santaman]

Captain Mike wrote:

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Still doesn't explain why StarFleet would give such a ship to a proven commander of one. No matter if you have the best engineer or crew. I mean what would happen in a combat situation if the ship went into catastrophic failure because it was a "testbed" vehicle? BBOOOOMM, there goes your most competent Starship Captain...

But it might explain why the ship was decomissioned so quickly, prototypes are usually build without much standard equipment so maintenance and the like would be more expensive for such a ship than for a standard model..

[Timo]

...We might also figure in that the Khitomer truce would give Starfleet the opportunity to stop doing stopgap purchases and life-extending refits and other such nonsense, and simply start mass-producing all-new, superior ships.

This because a) there would be funds freed when there was no (or reduced) need to stay on constant guard against the Klingons, and b) it would be acceptable to have a short, deep dip in Starfleet strength, due to the complete remaking of the fleet, as long as the Klingons were down for the count.

Starfleet couldn't know how long the truce would last. But for a few years at least, they could reasonably well trust that the only maneuver the weakened Klingons were capable of would be a desperate suicide sally to save the Empire - and that the events of ST6 had made that sort of an attempt very unlikely.

So, bye bye, Constellation class and other attempts at getting at least some mileage out of the LN-64 engines and other such outdated technology (Rick S did say that only a handful of those weird contraptions were built). Bye bye, old Constitutions. Bye bye, experiments at renovating or reinventing the Constitutions. Welcome, all sorts of new ideas - but while those are being tested, welcome, standardization on a limited number of the most modern designs in service.

Timo Saloniemi

[Ronald Held]

If the refit Enterprise was a testbed for new technologies, why not have the same Command crew on the Enterprise-A(another testbed)?

[BillJ]

starburst wrote:

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That sounds similar to the Mr Scotts Guide where the name Ti-Ho came from. In the book the ship which was renamed Enterprise was a test bed for a Transwarp Drive system along side the Excelsior, the explanation being two competing companies were working on the project one of which was the manufacturer of the Constitution nacelles.

I can buy the idea that this could be a new ship built to test new technology in a proven space frame before being installed in newer classes, whether that include a Transwarp or a new Warp Drive system. That could attribute to some of the issues she had leading into STV.

It does come from Mr. Scott's Guide. I mentioned it earlier in the thread.

I really think the Mr. Scott explanation is the best one and splits the difference between whether she's an old or new vessel. She's not brand spanking new, fresh off of the assembly line but neither is she a forty year old hand me down.

[Halliwell]

Okay after reading all six pages I think I have an alternate idea. Here's a crazy thought...what if the Enterprise-A was always called the Enterprise-A from the time her keel was laid? The events in Treks II and III take place pretty quickly. But in 2 the 1701 was regulated to a training ship with Spock in command. Who's to say that because of her history...a successful five year mission...saving Earth from VGer...that there wasn't already plans on honoring the Enterprise crew with another Constitution class refit.

Admiral Morrow states that all crewmembers will be given the highest commendation of the Federation in the beginning of Star Trek III. That took place in 2285. I'm no starship expert but if it takes a couple of years to build a brand new ship then it's feasible that while Spock commanded the original as a training ship, the new ship was already under construction and once the E-A was finished it was Starfleet's plan all along to decommission the original and launch the new Enterprise. But because of the unexpected pounding the old ship took, having to mothball her earlier than expected, and them needing Scotty on Excelsior, and the fact the crew stole the old girl that Starfleet didn't get a chance to inaugurate the new E-A the way they wanted or planned because of the events of Treks 2 and 3.

I mean after all the Enterprise has more than 40 years of service under multiple captains. I don't think the Enterprise-A was named in honor of Kirk and crew at all. I believe that it was named for the Enterprise herself and all that she had represented to the Federation. She represented an ideal, especially if you include the NX-01 as part of the name's history.

[Timo]

I think I just have a fundamental problem with replacing an outdated ship with another ship of identical design. That doesn't happen much in the real world.

I mean, when a military truck grows old, it may well get replaced by another of the same, thirty-year-old design, only this one is fresh off the still-open production lines. But ships are much more expensive and not really produced on "lines": the tooling is built for a specific batch and then scrapped, there is no spares or surplus production as such... And there are no advantages to be gained from standardization anyway. The last ship in a batch is likely to feature all sorts of improvements over the first - but if more ships are needed, there's no incentive for going back to the original design if this can be avoided.

Timo Saloniemi

[Halliwell]

That's true in the real world. But think back to Kirk's words when he sees Excelsior. He called it The Great Experiment. At that point in 2285 I don't think that Starfleet would assume that they would mass produce the Excelsior class. And thinking of the Constitution Refit design as seperate from the original, then we are only talking about 10 to 15 year old design. Decker called the refit an almost totally new Enterprise. It's illogical to assume that the actual design itself was old or a failure at the time the Enterprise-A was launched. I don't like the Yorktown idea because we already saw a commander and assuming he had a crew in command of the ship during the Probe crisis. What? Did that commander get thrown off his own ship just to make Kirk happy? I think it was just Roddenberry's way of trying to assert some control over the movie franchise. And while I liked Mister Scott's guide at the time it came out the whole TiHo thing was just silly.

But that's the great thing about Trek. I think that the Enterprise-A being the Enterprise-A is more fitting than other opinions. But we can all still dream our own continuity at times like this in our imaginations.

[C.E. Evans]

Halliwell wrote:

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I don't like the Yorktown idea because we already saw a commander and assuming he had a crew in command of the ship during the Probe crisis. What? Did that commander get thrown off his own ship just to make Kirk happy?

For all we know, the original Yorktown captain and crew were reassigned to a new Excelsior-class ship with that name. In that sense, what Kirk got was a hand-me-down ship renamed Enterprise as a PR move to the Federation public and the rest of the Galaxy at large.

[Halliwell]

Only one problem with that. There was only one Excelsior class ship at the time of Star Trek 4. And even it would be refitted somewhat between it's going from NX-2000 to NCC-2000. Starfleet doesn't have to worry about PR in my opinion. Because if they were going to really do that then it would be more of an honor of having a brand new ship named Enterprise than simply, as you called it, slapping the most famous name in the fleet on a hand me down.

[BillJ]

C.E. Evans wrote:

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For all we know, the original Yorktown captain and crew were reassigned to a new Excelsior-class ship with that name.

Doesn't really make a lot of sense based on the reaction of Kirk's senior staff upon seeing it. If they were already in production there would be nothing special about that ship to elicit that response. Prior to The Wrath of Khan they all seemed to be stationed on or near Earth except for Chekov.

The whole project was probably top-secret until Starfleet needed an actual port for the trial runs.

[C.E. Evans]

Halliwell wrote:

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Only one problem with that. There was only one Excelsior class ship at the time of Star Trek 4.

Actually, we don't know that at all. All we know is that Excelsior was the first. A second Exclesior-class ship could have been waiting in the wings in the final stages of construction at the time of Star Trek IV, and that ship became the new Yorktown.

And even it would be refitted somewhat between it's going from NX-2000 to NCC-2000.

As far as we know, Excelsior's registry was changed shortly after Star Trek IV after a second Excelsior-class ship entered service.

Starfleet doesn't have to worry about PR in my opinion. Because if they were going to really do that then it would be more of an honor of having a brand new ship named Enterprise than simply, as you called it, slapping the most famous name in the fleet on a hand me down.

I disagree. Designating another Constitution-class ship as the Enterprise and putting Kirk in command was a nice PR move (as well as a means of honoring the ship). The true origins of the ship as an earlier vessel would be irrelevant to the public.