The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

[C.E. Evans]

MacLeod wrote:

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Why?

You proposed that Starfleet would put an early model Constitution-class ship in the Museum just prior to the design's upgrade. NCC-1701, returning from her five-year mission, would be the best candidate (the Constitution-class would still have undergone an upgrade regardless).

If Kirk hadn't borrowed the Enterprise in TFSF it was likely it would have been put in the Fleet Museum

It may very well have been something Starfleet was planning at the time.

[MacLeod]

^No what I actually said was that the Enterprise might have been the FIRST to undergo such a refit. Following that refit Starfleet might have decied that it wasn't cost effective to upgrade further Constitution Class ships in the same manner, and simply retired them when they returned from their missions FOLLOWING the Enterprises refit.

[C.E. Evans]

^^^
You're then proposing that the Enterprise was the only (or one of only a few) Constitution-class ships to be upgraded and the rest remained in the original configuration.

[MacLeod]

No they were retired as no longer fit for purpose. Ships have a finite life, before they become obsolete or no longer cost effective to retrofit them to extend their active service life.

[C.E. Evans]

But it's possible that other Constitution-class ships were upgraded as well. I could see if the design was already beginning to be phased out by the time of Star Trek III, but the refit the Enterprise underwent in TMP may have extended the life of her sister ships for another 20 years or so as well (making the design upgrade worth it).

[MacLeod]

True, but the refit took what 18 months? If you could build a brand new ship in less time than that. Which is more efficent?

Yes the refit time might have come down with further refits, but the same could be said of building a new ship.

[Captaindemotion]

Timo wrote:

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Picard would then essentially be lying to Scotty. Which is something I could see him doing naturally enough, of course. But if Picard ever revealed that he was equating a Museum specimen of the refitted type with Scotty's painstakingly recreated "original", the engineer would not be pleased in the slightest.

If we take Picard at face value, then he is saying that he is recognizing what he sees because he has seen it before, in the Museum. If he has seen a refitted bridge, then he has not seen what the simulation is now showing him.

Timo Saloniemi

Not really. Picard might have visited it once years ago and just have a hazy recollection of what it looked like. Why assume that people in tv shows and movies have perfect recall at the time? All he might have recalled is that it was a museum piece and more old-fashioned than the ships he's used to in the 24th century. I doubt that Picard spent as much time noticing all the details the way that fans who have re-watched all the tv episodes and movies have.

If, for example you saw an old fashioned car from let's say the 1940s at a car show, then, years later, saw an upgraded version of the same model from the 1950s, would you recall all the differences? Or would you just say, yes, I've seen one of these before? (Assuming you're not an obsessive car buff!)

As it happens, I think that the writing was intended to suggest that Picard had indeed seen one that looked like Scotty's recreation. But I still think it's perfectly valid to suggest that he could have seen a refitted version and just have said 'Oh, yeah, I've seen one of these babies before.'

[C.E. Evans]

MacLeod wrote:

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True, but the refit took what 18 months?

Part of that 18 months included a redesigning (and likely R&D of new systems) phase of unknown length that wouldn't be necessary for subsequent ships. Subsequent upgrades could be accomplished in less time.

If you could build a brand new ship in less time than that. Which is more efficent?

It may really be just as easy (if not possibly easier) to upgrade an existing Constitution-class ship than to build a totally new one from scratch. Of course, with an existing ship, you've already got a basic spaceframe already in place for modification. After the incorporation of the already proven newer systems and hull components, the rest would be a matter of cosmetic changes.

[MacLeod]

Given the visual evidence between the Mk I and Mk II Constitution Class it seems as if they basically gutted the ship all the way down to almost the bare spaceframe. It was hardly a cosmetic change.

Given the extensive nature of the refit, it would appear you have to do double the amount of work that a new build would have. Givven the fact that you first have to take apart the orginal ship.

There seemed to be very little left of the orignal ship, that was visible at least.

[Ronald Held]

So is there an original unfit Constitution class vessel in the museum?

[C.E. Evans]

MacLeod wrote:

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Given the visual evidence between the Mk I and Mk II Constitution Class it seems as if they basically gutted the ship all the way down to almost the bare spaceframe. It was hardly a cosmetic change.

You skipped the rest of what I said:

"After the incorporation of the already proven newer systems and hull components..."

Given the extensive nature of the refit, it would appear you have to do double the amount of work that a new build would have. Givven the fact that you first have to take apart the orginal ship.

There seemed to be very little left of the orignal ship, that was visible at least.

We really don't know that at all because components such as the nacelles and support pylons could be standardized parts that could be easily swapped out. The rest could be just modifications to the existing spaceframe to incorporate them.

Ronald Held wrote:

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So is there an original unfit Constitution class vessel in the museum?

All that can be said for certain is that there is a Constitution-class ship in the Museum. Whether she is original or upgraded is unknown.

[MacLeod]

Ok, but to put in those newer systems you first have to take out the older ones. For a new build you wouldn't lose time in the construction removing older systems.

R&D has designed newer systems and a way to retrofit them into an existing space frame, so Starfleet decide's to try it out on the first ship to return from Deep Space following these devoplments. The first ship back just happens to be the Enterprise.

Had the Enterprise returned second it might have gone to the Fleet Museum.

[C.E. Evans]

MacLeod wrote:

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Ok, but to put in those newer systems you first have to take out the older ones. For a new build you wouldn't lose time in the construction removing older systems.

I actually don't think that would be much of a problem. The Constitution-class--both original and upgraded versions--are fairly modular designs.

R&D has designed newer systems and a way to retrofit them into an existing space frame, so Starfleet decide's to try it out on the first ship to return from Deep Space following these devoplments. The first ship back just happens to be the Enterprise.

Had the Enterprise returned second it might have gone to the Fleet Museum.

I agree on both counts.

[MacLeod]

^so under the point you agree upon had the Enterprise returned second it would have been put into the Fleet Musuem under the configutation it was under Kirk's command. Why would the same not hold true for another one of the Constitution Class under that same configuration.

Therefore Picard could have seen one of the Constiution Class ships under that configuration in the Fleet Musuem.

[C.E. Evans]

MacLeod wrote:

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^so under the point you agree upon had the Enterprise returned second it would have been put into the Fleet Musuem under the configutation it was under Kirk's command. Why would the same not hold true for another one of the Constitution Class under that same configuration.

Only under the idea that Kirk's ship was the most notable of the Constitution-class ships because of his five-year mission.

Otherwise, if the plan was to upgrade the Enterprise and keep her in service, I see no need for any Constitution ship to be placed in the Museum until the last ship was retired from active duty, and that ship would have been the final version of the design.