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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old June 27 2012, 09:07 PM   #136
Timo
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

Kirk is definitely retired in ST:GEN, as per Scotty's words. He just gets to keep his uniform, like is the case today in many (most?) militaries.

Scotty is probably retired as well, considering his age and the backstory of "Relics"; Chekov might still be in active service.

Interpreting Uhura's line as referring to the decommissioning of the veterans Kirk, McCoy, Spock and Scotty, rather than to the decommissioning of the ship, would do away with an inconsistency. Although since Uhura says "we", she would then have been facing retirement as well, despite probably being only as old as Sulu who was still going strong.

It might have been a much later ship.
Much earlier, probably - a holo-simulation of a pre-refit, TOS-style bridge was what prompted Picard's mention of the museum ship in "Relics".

The fact that the museum held such a ship need not have come as news to Scotty; the museum ship might have existed for decades before Scotty's retirement. Picard was only mentioning it to explain how he knew about Constitution class ships, not because he thought Scotty would need to know about what ships were in the Starfleet Museum and what were not.

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Old June 27 2012, 09:46 PM   #137
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

It might have been a much later ship.
Much earlier, probably - a holo-simulation of a pre-refit, TOS-style bridge was what prompted Picard's mention of the museum ship in "Relics".
Not necessarily, because Picard would have still known it was a Constitution-class bridge--regardless of it being original or refit--by both the ship display near the turbolift and, of course, by Scotty being there.
The fact that the museum held such a ship need not have come as news to Scotty; the museum ship might have existed for decades before Scotty's retirement. Picard was only mentioning it to explain how he knew about Constitution class ships, not because he thought Scotty would need to know about what ships were in the Starfleet Museum and what were not.
Or, it was the last of the Constitution-class ships to be retired from active duty and was placed in the Museum after Scotty's disappearance.
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Old June 27 2012, 10:05 PM   #138
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

Picard would have still known it was a Constitution-class bridge--regardless of it being original or refit--by both the ship display near the turbolift and, of course, by Scotty being there.
Quite probably so. But if Picard considered any arbitrary bridge layout "Constitution class", the scene would lose much of its meaning. And so far, visual proof still supports (or allows for) the view that TOS era bridges might have been class-distinct and thus the holo-simulation could have been specific to Constitution, whereas TOS movie era and later bridges have a great variety of arbitrary layouts that tell nothing about class identity.

Or, it was the last of the Constitution-class ships to be retired from active duty and was placed in the Museum after Scotty's disappearance.
I find it difficult to believe that Starfleet would keep any TOS configuration ships in active duty in the 2290s, two decades after the first verified refit of one. This was a time of heightened tensions with the Klingons, so the UFP would be pouring resources into Starfleet - and every ship we saw in the movies (regardless of class) was of the "refit era", without remaining TOS aesthetics to either the exterior or the interior.

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Old June 27 2012, 10:13 PM   #139
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

Picard would have still known it was a Constitution-class bridge--regardless of it being original or refit--by both the ship display near the turbolift and, of course, by Scotty being there.
Quite probably so. But if Picard considered any arbitrary bridge layout "Constitution class", the scene would lose much of its meaning.
I see no reason to believe that. Picard would have known it was the original Enterprise bridge no matter what simply by Scotty's presence there.
Or, it was the last of the Constitution-class ships to be retired from active duty and was placed in the Museum after Scotty's disappearance.
I find it difficult to believe that Starfleet would keep any TOS configuration ships in active duty in the 2290s, two decades after the first verified refit of one.
Exactly my initial point, they wouldn't, so it would have been a refitted version in the Museum.
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Old June 27 2012, 10:25 PM   #140
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

Picard would then essentially be lying to Scotty. Which is something I could see him doing naturally enough, of course. But if Picard ever revealed that he was equating a Museum specimen of the refitted type with Scotty's painstakingly recreated "original", the engineer would not be pleased in the slightest.

If we take Picard at face value, then he is saying that he is recognizing what he sees because he has seen it before, in the Museum. If he has seen a refitted bridge, then he has not seen what the simulation is now showing him.

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Old June 27 2012, 10:30 PM   #141
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

Picard would then essentially be lying to Scotty.
Not at all, because it would just be Picard acknowledging that the original Enterprise was a Constitution-class starship and telling Scotty there was one in the Museum.
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Old June 27 2012, 10:37 PM   #142
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

And that would be, ahem, highly misleading, because Scotty's fantasy ship would not be in the Museum at all. Scotty is directly asking "are you familiar with what I'm simulating here?" and Picard makes it sound as if he is saying "yes, I am, because we have this in the Fleet Museum", even though the answer must really be "no" if the Fleet Museum specimen is of the refitted sort.

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Old June 27 2012, 10:44 PM   #143
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

And that would be, ahem, highly misleading, because Scotty's fantasy ship would not be in the Museum at all.
There's nothing misleading about it at all and the rest isn't even an issue in their discussion.

Both the original and refit configurations are considered Constitution-class.
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Old June 28 2012, 09:57 AM   #144
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

Which would be a technicality Scotty would be quite annoyed with - he didn't want any "bloody A" to mar his trip down the memory lane.

The fact is that Picard would know nothing about Scotty's dream ship if he were only familiar with the refitted Constitution class: the refit created an "almost completely new Enterprise" as stated in ST:TMP, a ship unrelated to Scotty's simulation in anything but name.

From Scotty's POV, Picard is being a pal. From Picard's POV, he's telling a (rather white) lie if he has visited a refitted museum piece.

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Old June 28 2012, 10:10 AM   #145
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

Which would be a technicality Scotty would be quite annoyed with - he didn't want any "bloody A" to mar his trip down the memory lane.
Doubtful and unlikely the case. If anything, Scotty probably has more memories with the refit version of NCC-1701 than the original (presumably 15 years versus 5 years). It wouldn't take away Scotty's joy of seeing the older configuration after so many years, however.
The fact is that Picard would know nothing about Scotty's dream ship if he were only familiar with the refitted Constitution class: the refit created an "almost completely new Enterprise" as stated in ST:TMP, a ship unrelated to Scotty's simulation in anything but name.
I don't believe this is a fact at all. The only thing we can say with any certainty is that Picard saw Scotty in a holodeck simulation and correctly surmised it was the original Enterprise bridge, Constitution-class.
From Scotty's POV, Picard is being a pal. From Picard's POV, he's telling a (rather white) lie if he has visited a refitted museum piece.
Not really.
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Old June 28 2012, 10:46 AM   #146
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

Scotty probably has more memories with the refit version of NCC-1701 than the original
Irrelevant when we see what he has deliberately chosen as his preferred mode of entertainment.

Unless we speculate that he really wanted the refit -nil, and didn't have the guts to contradict the computer when he realized he had not been sufficiently specific. But that doesn't sound like our engineer at all, especially not when he's loaded.

I don't believe this is a fact at all.
Decker did, and Kirk showed him to be right. Any connection between the two incarnations of NCC-1701 is semantic at best.

Scotty specifically asks Picard "You're familiar with them?", as regards the Constitution class. Picard doesn't say yes, but he says there is one in the museum. If Scotty takes that for a yes, and the museum piece is a refit, then he's being had. And if Picard intends for this to happen, he's lying for a cause.

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Old June 28 2012, 11:38 AM   #147
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

Scotty probably has more memories with the refit version of NCC-1701 than the original
Irrelevant when we see what he has deliberately chosen as his preferred mode of entertainment.
Actually, his preferred mode of entertainment is irrelevant since the holodeck program simply showed him a configuration from Kirk's time (likely a historical default selection because of the 5-year mission).
I don't believe this is a fact at all.
Decker did, and Kirk showed him to be right.
Um, no. Outside of TMP, there has never been a distinction between the original and refit configurations of the Constitution-class, and even then it was a case of the ship having been recently reconfigured. Otherwise, both versions are considered Constitution-class and onscreen material has backed that up more than once (in Star Trek VI and in TNG).
Any connection between the two incarnations of NCC-1701 is semantic at best.

Scotty specifically asks Picard "You're familiar with them?", as regards the Constitution class. Picard doesn't say yes, but he says there is one in the museum. If Scotty takes that for a yes, and the museum piece is a refit, then he's being had. And if Picard intends for this to happen, he's lying for a cause.
Actually, it really only means that Picard is familiar with the Constitution-class and that he knows there's one in the Fleet Museum. The one in the Museum would still be a Constitution-class if it was a later version of one so there's no lie there nor an issue of semantics.
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Old June 28 2012, 11:59 AM   #148
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Picard would have still known it was a Constitution-class bridge--regardless of it being original or refit--by both the ship display near the turbolift and, of course, by Scotty being there.
Quite probably so. But if Picard considered any arbitrary bridge layout "Constitution class", the scene would lose much of its meaning.
I see no reason to believe that. Picard would have known it was the original Enterprise bridge no matter what simply by Scotty's presence there.
Or, it was the last of the Constitution-class ships to be retired from active duty and was placed in the Museum after Scotty's disappearance.
I find it difficult to believe that Starfleet would keep any TOS configuration ships in active duty in the 2290s, two decades after the first verified refit of one.
Exactly my initial point, they wouldn't, so it would have been a refitted version in the Museum.
Why, the Enterprise might have been the first Constiution Class ship to have gone through the refit process. After which Starfleet could have determine that it was more efficent to just build new ones from scratch rather than refitting exisiting ones, and just retired the old configuration ones. Placing one in the Fleet Musuem.

Or they simply wanted to preserve one as it was.
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Old June 28 2012, 01:15 PM   #149
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Quite probably so. But if Picard considered any arbitrary bridge layout "Constitution class", the scene would lose much of its meaning.
I see no reason to believe that. Picard would have known it was the original Enterprise bridge no matter what simply by Scotty's presence there.
I find it difficult to believe that Starfleet would keep any TOS configuration ships in active duty in the 2290s, two decades after the first verified refit of one.
Exactly my initial point, they wouldn't, so it would have been a refitted version in the Museum.
Why, the Enterprise might have been the first Constiution Class ship to have gone through the refit process. After which Starfleet could have determine that it was more efficent to just build new ones from scratch rather than refitting exisiting ones, and just retired the old configuration ones. Placing one in the Fleet Musuem.

Or they simply wanted to preserve one as it was.
I think if there was any ship they would have done that to, it would have been NCC-1701. Otherwise, it makes more sense to put one of the last Constitution-class ships in the Museum once they all started to be retired from active service.
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Old June 28 2012, 01:25 PM   #150
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

Why? You could argue that if the Federation PR machine made something out of the Enterprise's 5 year mission under Captain Kirk. Rather than retiring it to put into a muesum. They refitted it so they could say the Enterprise is contining in her mission. When Kirk became Captain again after the V'ger incident it was just icing on the cake.

If Kirk hadn't borrowed the Enterprise in TFSF it was likely it would have been put in the Fleet Museum
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