RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 137,889
Posts: 5,330,035
Members: 24,557
Currently online: 493
Newest member: Mgroup Video

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Inquisition
By: Michelle on Jul 12

Cubify Star Trek 3DMe Mini Figurines
By: T'Bonz on Jul 11

Latest Official Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Jul 10

Seven of Nine Bobble Head
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

Pegg The Prankster
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

More Trek Stars Join Unbelievable!!!!!
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

Star Trek #35 Preview
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

New ThinkGeek Trek Apparel
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Star Trek Movie Prop Auction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Drexler: NX Engineering Room Construction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 3 2012, 02:07 PM   #1
Bry_Sinclair
Commodore
 
Bry_Sinclair's Avatar
 
Location: Along the border of Talarian space
Voyager made the Borg wusses

This may already have been discussed and debated before, but I thought I would throw my opinions out there.

In TNG and FC (as well as "Emissary" from DS9), the Borg were a clear and present danger. Massive, powerful ships that carried thousands of drones, all hell bent on assimilating (almost) every species in their wake. Starfleet only defeated them by sheer luck on two separate invasions.

Then along comes VOY...and it all goes to hell.

The entire might of the Borg Collective in the DQ cannot destroy one insignificant ship? One ship who manages to outwit them at every turn? Really?

After Seven came onboard and the Borg were the recurring Big-Bad of the series, they became a joke.

Then just to rub salt in the open wound, ENT comes along and has to do a Borg episode as well, where an inept 22nd century Captain manages to defeat 24th century Borg.
__________________
Avatar: Captain Susanna Leijten, U.S.S. Silverfin NCC-4470, Border Service Third Cutter Squadron
Manip by: FltCpt. Bossco (STPMA)
Bry_Sinclair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 3 2012, 02:23 PM   #2
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: Voyager made the Borg wusses

Repetition made the Borg wussies, not Voyager specifically. It's hardly unique to the Borg or Star Trek - any super baddie eventually loses its fangs when our heroes survive them enough times.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 3 2012, 02:31 PM   #3
BruntFCA
Commander
 
BruntFCA's Avatar
 
Location: A Mile High
Re: Voyager made the Borg wusses

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
This may already have been discussed and debated before, but I thought I would throw my opinions out there.

In TNG and FC (as well as "Emissary" from DS9), the Borg were a clear and present danger. Massive, powerful ships that carried thousands of drones, all hell bent on assimilating (almost) every species in their wake. Starfleet only defeated them by sheer luck on two separate invasions.

Then along comes VOY...and it all goes to hell.

The entire might of the Borg Collective in the DQ cannot destroy one insignificant ship? One ship who manages to outwit them at every turn? Really?

After Seven came onboard and the Borg were the recurring Big-Bad of the series, they became a joke.

Then just to rub salt in the open wound, ENT comes along and has to do a Borg episode as well, where an inept 22nd century Captain manages to defeat 24th century Borg.
I actually think ENT made the Borg look the best they had in a long time.
__________________
"Well, I come from a long, long line of smartasses. Smartass is allergic to dumbass. It’s actually a physical allergy, as in you’re repulsed by dumbasses."
Josh Homme
BruntFCA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 3 2012, 03:25 PM   #4
Yevetha
Commodore
 
Re: Voyager made the Borg wusses

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
This may already have been discussed and debated before, but I thought I would throw my opinions out there.

In TNG and FC (as well as "Emissary" from DS9), the Borg were a clear and present danger. Massive, powerful ships that carried thousands of drones, all hell bent on assimilating (almost) every species in their wake. Starfleet only defeated them by sheer luck on two separate invasions.

Then along comes VOY...and it all goes to hell.

The entire might of the Borg Collective in the DQ cannot destroy one insignificant ship? One ship who manages to outwit them at every turn? Really?

After Seven came onboard and the Borg were the recurring Big-Bad of the series, they became a joke.

Then just to rub salt in the open wound, ENT comes along and has to do a Borg episode as well, where an inept 22nd century Captain manages to defeat 24th century Borg.
The Borg were busy fighting the Undine, that is why they never catched Voyager.
Yevetha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 3 2012, 03:52 PM   #5
jefferiestubes8
Commodore
 
Location: New York City
Re: Voyager made the Borg weaker overall?

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
This may already have been discussed and debated before, but I thought I would throw my opinions out there.
While VOY defeated the Borg battles a few times before 7of9 became a crewmember. Her knowledge helped them.

I feel VOY made the Borg scarier with the lighting, atmospheric effects (smoke & haze for ship interiors), and costumes compared to TNG.

also see these threads:
Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Voyager: Was I the only one who enjoyed the Borg appearances?

Did Voyager make the Borg unscary?
jefferiestubes8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 3 2012, 04:49 PM   #6
sonak
Vice Admiral
 
Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
Re: Voyager made the Borg wusses

yes, VOY overused them and turned them into just another enemy. You can't have a super-badass enemy if you keep defeating them over and over. The Borg weren't meant to be used so frequently.
sonak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 3 2012, 04:59 PM   #7
Leroy
Fleet Captain
 
Leroy's Avatar
 
Re: Voyager made the Borg wusses

I agree that the Borg suffered severe villain decay after being used and beaten on Voyager too many times.

Another thing that I think hindered them was changing them to fit the story instead of the other way around. When they first appeared in Q Who they did not assimilate they reproduced (remember the Borg baby in the nursery?) they were also utterly uninterested in lifeforms and were only concerned with being the ultimate technology user.

To add insult to injury they were changed yet again for First Contact by adding the queen. I admit that the queen made a great adversary but her addition made all the drones into nothing more than henchmen it also makes no sense given the collective concept aren't they all able to be the leader, fighter, engineer, etc.?

Not to mention being unable to take down an unshielded Voyager with a tactical cube.
Leroy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4 2012, 12:14 AM   #8
Unicron
Continuity Spackle
 
Unicron's Avatar
 
Location: Cybertron
Send a message via ICQ to Unicron
Re: Voyager made the Borg wusses

Leroy wrote: View Post

Another thing that I think hindered them was changing them to fit the story instead of the other way around. When they first appeared in Q Who they did not assimilate they reproduced (remember the Borg baby in the nursery?) they were also utterly uninterested in lifeforms and were only concerned with being the ultimate technology user.
One might argue this isn't necessarily true, but is reflective of what Picard and his crew assumed to be true of the Borg during their first contact in "Q Who?", and that they learned more later. I think it's probably fair to say it was author intent at the time the script was written, because the Borg were only meant to be an alien of the week. But both Q and Guinan make statements that could be interpreted to support the process of assimilation, and that the Borg don't see humanoids as much more than a convenient form of living technology to be assimilated (raw material, as Guinan puts it).

As for VOY, I think some valid arguments were raised in the linked threads that the Borg weren't inherently "weakened" on the show, and the ship wasn't flying around killing cubes every encounter. They only did that in the finale with futuristic technology. The Borg weren't always used to the best effect either, but nobody's perfect.
__________________

"My dream is to eat candy and poop emeralds. I'm halfway successful."


Catbert, Evil Director of Human Resources
Unicron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4 2012, 02:41 AM   #9
Temis the Vorta
Fleet Admiral
 
Temis the Vorta's Avatar
 
Location: Tatoinne
Re: Voyager made the Borg wusses

This may already have been discussed and debated before
You would be correct about that.
Temis the Vorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4 2012, 10:00 AM   #10
USS KG5
Vice Admiral
 
USS KG5's Avatar
 
Location: England's green and pleasant land.
Re: Voyager made the Borg wusses

BruntFCA wrote: View Post
I actually think ENT made the Borg look the best they had in a long time.
Quite, while the phase pistols were possibly a bit too effective, the Borg themselves, even in tiny numbers, were clearly bordering on capable of taking out Earth's best with an old freighter just before they were destroyed. Even a small actual Borg ship would have assimilated Earth without breaking a sweat.

Plus still lethal after a century in the ice?? Pretty bad-ass!
__________________
I believe in a better world, so I love Star Trek. I have to live in this one, so I love Battlestar Galactica.
USS KG5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4 2012, 07:27 PM   #11
Neutral Zone
Captain
 
Neutral Zone's Avatar
 
Location: Ferenginar
Re: Voyager made the Borg wusses

Even though ENT made the Borg look like a bunch of wussies, I'd like to know why they them in the first place? Another continuty breakdown in the TNT series?

If memory serves me coorect we meet the Borg in TNG when Q takes Enterprise to a far quadrant. Guinan then comments at some point that Q should not have done that as it was too early for them to meet the Borg.

But then there were many weaknesses in the ENT series.
Neutral Zone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4 2012, 09:39 PM   #12
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: Voyager made the Borg wusses

The Borg in "Regeneration" were survivors of the Time Sphere that blew up in "First Contact". They were unrelated to the Borg of the 22nd century.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 5 2012, 02:38 AM   #13
Xhiandra
Lieutenant Commander
 
Xhiandra's Avatar
 
Re: Voyager made the Borg wusses

I agree, there was a significant amount of villainous decay, especially in Endgame, but there in-series explanations for Voyager eluding the Borg apparently are:
- at first, the Borg are too busy with the Undine threat.
- afterwards, the Borg are for some reason uninterested in assimilating Voyager; which doesn't make sense given the Borg's mindset.

In ENT, though, it was only 2 drones (IIRC), and they were quite formidable/scary in that episode.

Leroy wrote: View Post
To add insult to injury they were changed yet again for First Contact by adding the queen. I admit that the queen made a great adversary but her addition made all the drones into nothing more than henchmen it also makes no sense given the collective concept aren't they all able to be the leader, fighter, engineer, etc.?
This is something I often see, but I disagree.
The existence of the Queen doesn't devalue the Borg, she's just an interface.
Don't think of the Queen as the Borg ruler (regardless of name), but as the embodiement of the Collective.
She centralises the Borg, but isn't a weakness as she can easily be re-built from another drone (but only a female drone, apparently).
Xhiandra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 5 2012, 10:35 AM   #14
Bry_Sinclair
Commodore
 
Bry_Sinclair's Avatar
 
Location: Along the border of Talarian space
Re: Voyager made the Borg wusses

Xhiandra wrote: View Post
This is something I often see, but I disagree.
The existence of the Queen doesn't devalue the Borg, she's just an interface.
Don't think of the Queen as the Borg ruler (regardless of name), but as the embodiement of the Collective.
She centralises the Borg, but isn't a weakness as she can easily be re-built from another drone (but only a female drone, apparently).
That's how I've always viewed the Queen's role.
__________________
Avatar: Captain Susanna Leijten, U.S.S. Silverfin NCC-4470, Border Service Third Cutter Squadron
Manip by: FltCpt. Bossco (STPMA)
Bry_Sinclair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 5 2012, 10:43 AM   #15
AntonyF
Administrator
 
AntonyF's Avatar
 
View AntonyF's Twitter Profile
Re: Voyager made the Borg wusses

Nothing will compare in gravity to that one sole cube chasing the Enterprise...

As they say, less is more.
__________________
"I'll, uh, consume this in a room without detonating crockery, thank you very much."
AntonyF is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:37 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.